Interview with Luke Leaman discussing Hyper Nutrition - Part 2

# Interview with Luke Leaman discussing Hyper Nutrition - Part 2

**Channel:** The ATP Project
**Published:** unknown
**Source:** podcast

Welcome to the ATP Project, interview with Luke Lehman on Hypernutrition Part 2. In today's podcast, Matt, Steve and I continue our discussion with Muscle Nerds founder, Master Trainer Luke Lehman. We continue to discuss why more is not always better. This is the final episode in the two-part series. As I said last week, both podcasts are more conversational in style and differ a lot from our normal podcast format. As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start. Welcome to the ATP Project. Delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind. as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health-related that can make you better. So when would you give branched-chain amino acids for someone that wants to grow? How much should they take? So I would probably tend to give them right after the workout. Post-workout? Yeah, probably post-workout. And that's for hypertrophy as well? Yeah, stimulate mTOR a little bit, you know, that type of thing. Or you could take it before, like Steve was saying, you're going to block a little bit of the tryptophan, so you're going to have a little bit more energy during the workout. But you'll burn a lot of those branch chains as part of that workout. At that point, it's just going to jump into the citric acid cycle. So between meals, is there ever a time really for branch chain of me sipping on it? No. No? No, I don't think so. Now, the big thing I've noticed as well, because everyone's starting to say branch chains, everyone's gone excited about branch chains and overplugged them, and then people weren't getting the results they expected. So now everyone's saying that's because you didn't have the essentials. So now a big pattern I'm seeing is what everyone was doing with the flavored branch chain amino acids between meals are now doing with essential aminos. Is that better, or are we going to see the same sort of stuff? It's still the same sort of stuff. If you take a lot of amino acids and it's not combined in a food group as a whole complete protein, you're going to have issues. And when I was looking into the research on the essential amino acids, you only need about six to eight grams to get the anabolic effect. And I remember seeing that. This was, I don't know, maybe five years ago. I decided, well, I'm going to take six to eight grams four or five times a day. I'm going to see what it'll do. And after about seven to ten days, I walked into the gym, and I said, man, I feel heavy, and I can't breathe. I don't know what's going on. I wouldn't have gotten the skills. I'd put on 11 or 12 pounds. I was like, holy shit. But it was all water and bloat, and I was super inflamed. So I got off of it and lost it. But I had pushed it past this point where for a couple of weeks, I couldn't look at a carb without blowing up and passing out almost. Yeah, right. So, you know. That's insulin resistance again because a lot of the essential amino acids have, you know, they can be converted through sugars and they'll help your body too. Again, they get burned as a source of fuel. It's called gluconeogenesis if you want to look up the term, anybody? No gluconeogenesis. Actually, thank you very much. But, yeah, in terms of obviously more, and this is the whole thing about more is not better, and we have touched on it on quite a few different podcasts. Any other specific times where you've seen people taking more because they've gone, a little bit's good, more's a lot better. Let's get into it where they've done themselves some damage or some harm. Well, I'll tell you another story, something, again, dumb shit I've done to myself with nutrition. So there was some research that came out that showed that performance gains from caffeine, six to nine milligrams per kilogram. And at the time, I was probably about 110 kilograms. Whoa. I had, yeah, that's it. So you're talking about a thousand milligrams? Yeah, about a thousand, 1100, somewhere around there, right? So I tried six grams for six milligrams per kilogram. That works really well. I thought you said six grams. You took six grams. No, no. But yeah. So the story, when I tell you, you're going to, you guys are going to freak out at what I did to myself. So, you know, we were taking high dose and the 600 milligrams of caffeine, totally fine. As long as you're going to work out 900, you get quite a bit nauseous. And then if you take it and don't work out, you get super ridiculously sick. Yeah. But one day I put 15 pills of beta alanine in one pocket, and I put 15 pills of a supplement that had 225 milligrams of caffeine per pill in the other. And so they both looked the same. And so I was working. I said, okay, I'll take the beta alanine, and when I feel this tingle start to work, then I'll pop a couple of these. I'll pop like two or three of these other ones, and I'll go to the gym. But I forgot which pocket they were in. And I ended up taking 15 pills with 225 milligrams of caffeine in them. And so I was banging out emails. About 45 minutes later, I'm like, I should be tingling by now. I don't understand what's going on. And then I realized my heart rate was like 140, 150. And I started freaking out. And I realized what I had done. And I went on like this huge four speed walk because I kept thinking if I stop walking I going to have a heart attack And I ended up eating an entire tub of powdered vitamin C just trying to neutralize it What does the vitamin C do? Well, it breaks down catecholamines, right? So it helps to neutralize a lot of that. And normally, you know, you eat five, six, seven grams of vitamin C, you're going to get disaster pants. I ate the entire bottle. Wow. Oh, man. It did nothing. No disaster pants. No disaster pants. Yeah. The little green apple splatters in your underwear. Would you be looking at taking taurine as well too, just to protect the heart? Yeah, but I didn't have any. Right. You know, it wasn't soon after that I started having panic attacks and I didn't realize what it was. And it was, I had depleted all my taurine. And it's almost like a post-traumatic stress disorder. You actually set your cortisol levels so high that you become resistant to normal levels. Well, it's not switching stuff off. You've got to remember caffeine blocks adenosine. That's how it works. So really, adenosine regulates you. So you don't want to block too much of that. Adenosine from adenosine dye and triphosphate? Yeah, the same thing. But adenosine is a sedative neurotransmitter as well. I don't want to get too nerdy with this. Adenosine by itself. Right. So adenosine, you can prescribe it in hospitals for people having acute MIs and that sort of stuff. So adenosine is a molecule that calms you down, helps you sleep, for example. And if you block that with caffeine, you wake up more. But taking, I'm just doing math, three grams of it. Half-life. Okay, let's do it. Half-life for three hours. Your average coffee is what, 80 milliliters? 75 milligrams in a cup of coffee in a weak cup of green tea, a normal one-server coffee. Your Starbucks venti, the big buckets from Starbucks, are 500 milligrams of caffeine. So we're looking at you probably having, what, three of those ventis ingested immediately. Well, it's actually six. Six. Wow. See, I suck at maths, but I... That's not the only thing you suck at. Yeah. Just ask John. But, you know, the caffeine with its half-life of three hours, it's going to be hanging around a lot. And even if half of it's gone, you've still got a gram and a half. The highest I've ever seen done in the medical studies is 500 milligrams, and that's for treatment with severe Alzheimer's. That's nothing. They should just go down to Starbucks and get a Vento. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's what they're doing, unstudied. And those people do it multiple times a day. Those drinks, you know, the Rockstar drinks and the Monster drinks, I think they've got, you know, some have got 150, some have got 250 milligrams per can, and they load them up with taurine by two grams. And hydrous caffeine is very different acting to a caffeine that's found in green teas, coffees, garamas and that sort of stuff. Because we've also got the polyphenols in there that control the receptor, the catecholamine receptor activity. You can have the same amount of caffeine out of green tea as you can out of a coffee and then out of a supplement and you'll feel the supplement or you'll feel that drink, that ready-to-go drink. you'll feel that, but you won't feel the green tea at all, and you feel something out of the coffee. Yeah. You know, and they can have exactly the same amount of caffeine. It just depends on the, like, for example, guarana caffeine doesn't give people anywhere near as much of a crash. It's a slower in and a slower out, you know, those sort of things. We used to have this product way back where it called Limitless. Some of our earlier guys would remember that, Matt, and you went more down the, wasn't it guarana? What was it that you used again? Oh, we had so many cool stuff in there. I mean, we had multiple forms of different caffeine, but it was all slow. We had multiple different forms of caffeine to be absorbed at different rates so you didn't get a spike and a crash. Well, and in theory, and it went quite well as well too in theory, but the thing is that's before we were manufacturing and I know that that wasn't being manufactured the way that we wanted it to be. We should take that one and dust it off and give it another crack but us make it because I reckon we'd get better results. Oh, hell yeah. Anyway, I know you've got other things in the cupboard you're looking at for pre-workout. This is the other thing I'm seeing a lot now. So just in general with overdosing and stuff, people still think they can't overdose on protein like you just see like even that we've seen the the studies that were done on the the germans did a lot of studies trying to work out what the ideal dose of whey was to compare our collagen peptides to and in those studies they screened 10 to 80 grams of whey post-workout found negligible differences they did find about 20 grams of whey was about the right amount and past there you didn't achieve anything else um so these people that have taken this abundance amounts of whey and adding protein into everything that people We just need to realize that what the protein goes in for the amino acids and your muscle. So you get the muscle, the proteins into this. You get the brain effects. You get detoxification effects. But the 50% of the excess is converted through to sugar or something anyway, huh? So that's another common one and adds a lot of burden onto the kidneys and all that sort of stuff if you're going crazy in excess. It's a really hard one to be efficient with that. Again, selling supplements way back when, guys that are 100 kilos would go that 30 grams of protein isn't nearly enough. I'm taking 50 or 60 grams. You know what I mean? And they were looking at not only for post-workout recovery, but also going, well, I need the macros in through the day anyway, because I've got to get my 220, 250 grams of protein and whatever they're trying to get. You know those studies and they talk about high diets They not high diets They protein So anything more than protein is unnecessary huh So what do you do with protein in your clinic Do you work it out per kilo body weight It all depends. So Jose Antonio put out a couple of really good studies in the last couple of years. I think one was six months and one was one year, where they took people at anywhere from 2.2 to 3.3, and even up to 6 grams per kilogram, and found in most people there's no detrimental effect, and more protein seemed to be better, but a lot of these studies were also hypocaloric diets so when you're under eating calories you probably need to pump your protein up as long as you can get rid of the nitrogen and that's part of the problem people talk about having a positive nitrogen balance but again the body craves balance so you can have too high of a nitrogen balance and then you have to get rid of that through the urea cycle and then you realize wow my sweat smells like bleach I don't understand what's going on well your body's trying to get rid of the ammonia but the urea cycle's not working correctly because you've got a nutrient deficiency or something else is going on, right? So we will typically, I like the 2.2 to 3.3 grams per kilogram. The more carbs I give somebody, the less protein I'm going to give them. They don't really need it. But if somebody's in a hypocaloric diet and we're trying to save muscle tissue, I don't mind using some of that protein to create sugar because when you eat protein, you've got a 30% reduction through the thermic effect of food. then if you're in a lower carbohydrate lower fat lower calorie diet some of that protein will then be turned into sugar through gluconeogenesis which costs more energy so you can put someone in an energy deficit without actually like severely dieting them by by just through biochemical transformations right yeah so it can be a good strategy in terms then of obviously removing the ammonia and urea what are you suggesting for that if people are consuming a higher protein than you know say say normal so if they're doing higher than normal and they're They're getting those issues of ammonia toxicity. So you see this a lot with guys. They'll do like a super compensation routine where they're training twice a day, six days a week, and then they're eating tons of protein and tons of calories. And then they go home, and guys, when they come back from the gym, they take all their clothes off and string them through the house. And then your wife yells at you, and you go back and you grab your shirt, and then you smell your shirt, and it smells like bleach. It smells like ammonia. If that's happening, then you probably need to cut the training down a little bit. you're probably taking it too far and you're catabolic. You need to cut the protein down a little bit. And then what you guys were talking about, the arginine, that might be a good time to take a little bit of arginine or ornithine or citrulline to try to neutralize some of it because those are used in the urea cycle. But you don't need 20 grams of arginine. You just need two or three grams will do it. Wouldn't citrulline be better? Citrulline would be the preferred. So like six grams of citrulline or nine grams of citrulline malate. That's all you need. And glycine is really one of the other common side effects of ammonia toxicity from this is anger, irrational anger, irritability. And glycine is one of the best ways of controlling the neurotransmitters in the brain having a mild inhibitory effect to offset the ammonia and avoiding excessive glutamic acids because it's via that that it will create that kind of temporary insanity. So you should take 80 grams of glycine post-workout. Yeah, that'll slow you down. Maybe, yeah, we can stay a bit lower. A couple of grams is enough. It's a good way to lose weight when you have the Hershey's squirts and you're puking at the same time. Yeah, Hershey squirts. I've never heard that one. Hershey squirts. It's funny, eh? You've got brown chocolate spurting out your butt. There you go. Yeah. He was just thinking of Hershey kisses. Yeah. Right, okay. So basically, the other one that I see a lot of that I just want to just quickly cover off on is ketones. Because exogenous... No, I know I'm going to stir you up with it. Because I'm not going to specifically just talk about the way people are using it at the moment for fat loss. But in my experience, I've had really good experience using ketones as a nootropic ketones for mental clarity ketones for anti-epileptic man i used to nail the ketones and go low carb for my exams so whenever i come into study time and exam time i'd go fully low carb get into ketosis and when i wasn't in ketosis i'd be supplementing on the ketones to stay smart and sharp which i'm all cool with except the fact at the moment i'm seeing ketones popping up into everything now being told that it's going to keep you in fat burning mode Just before Luke comments, just to give some history as well too, Matt, I know that we've slammed ketones, raspberry ketones, for example, on nuts things. Raspberry ketones make your nuts explode. That was a weird study I read. They said your raspberry ketones make your nuts explode. And then people said this is a good idea to supplement with. I'm going, how is this? Yeah, and it's like anything. It's like a tool, right? It's the same as non-nutritive sweeteners. There's a time and a place, whatever it may be. So the way I think ketones in the general marketplace at the moment, and especially with some of the network marketing companies that are out there, the claims, I think, and what they're saying, they do everything from make you a rocket scientist and give you wings. And they put it in breastfeeding and put it into your baby's bottles and give it to your children's. But then they all keep talking about fat loss So let again as some of the guys whenever I mention this this is gonna be a huzzah moment Let not throw the baby out with the bathwater Let talk about you know we ketones And we talked a lot about where they been misrepresented and used poorly Matt and you know all the rest of it But there are some places that they're good and that they do work. But let's, okay, Luke, you go first, mate, and then we'll circle back around. All right. Because, I mean, the look in your face is the same as the way that I feel a lot of time when I hear ketones. Look, here's the thing. People think that all this ketone stuff is brand new. But I was doing this 22 years ago when I was 18. I was doing Atkinson's South Beach Diet and all that. And the first recorded kind of low-carb, high-fat diet was in Letters of Corpulence by William Banting in 1863. Wow. Right? So this is not a new thing, and everybody's jumping on the bandwagon. And so can I talk about the exogenous ketones first? And then I'll talk about ketones as nutritional ketones. Yeah, yeah. And how they're being used or misused. Yeah. Okay, so you're epileptic. Great. Use the ketones because then you're able to eat a normal diet and eat carbohydrates and take the ketones and not have seizures. That's awesome. If you're taking it for the brain benefits, the brain loves carbs. Okay? So if you can get carbs into the brain properly, that is the preferred fuel source, you know. Can they increase performance and especially cognitive performance? Yes. But the problem is they're really expensive and the majority of them are through MLM fucking marketing things. I cannot stand these MLM people, right? If you want to ostracize yourself, lose all your friends, lose all your family members, join a fucking MLM. Do you know the reason for that? Is that a lot of people who get into MLMs are not actually business people. They're lay people. I mean, and there are some good companies out there with MLM, and there are some good practitioners, but I understand what you're saying. The rank and file have no clue how to do business, and so then they become an annoying... But they're not police. They can make claims that no professional could ever make, and no professional ever would because we know better. So when you've got a housewife saying, it's perfectly fine to use for pregnancy, breastfeeding, And in fact, it can only do good things. And anyone that says negative is just bitchy. I'll tell you a sad story, and I won't mention any names or anything, but there is a nurse who's selling loads of MLM stuff at the hospital. I don't doubt it. Now, that's scary because you're coming across as a professional health worker, and you're selling MLM. There's someone else as well, too, that someone I know very close has recently had an appointment. She went there and they recommended this MLM company's product. When Matt had a look at it, he's like, this is terrible stuff. The only reason they're recommending it is because there's money to be made in it. Now, I'm not bagging all MLMs. There are some good ones out there with some cool stuff. But like anything, they're far and few between. Like good companies, they're far and few between, like most things. But yeah, I understand your frustration. I'm working with an AFL guy in Victoria. And I'm looking at some of the stuff he's on. And I looked at this and go, what is this product? And I looked it up and it was an MLM company. And the ingredients were just rubbish. It wasn't even close to the amounts you need to actually make things work. And I go, where did you get this? He goes, my doctor got it for me. And it was basically on every single product that that company made. And I go, there's not enough of the actual ingredients in any of this to do anything. And it looks like this is probably quite expensive. He goes, yeah, it's super expensive. And I go, yeah, it's making your wallet lighter, but you're not getting any lighter or faster. So let's take you off this and put you on some stuff that actually works. But the other thing, the thing I have with the ketones as well is they're marketing them as a fat loss supplement. They're not a fat loss supplement. They're a byproduct of fat loss metabolism, right? So if you're ingesting all these ketones, it's like the branch change. You're taking tons of branch change. That is a caloric value. The ketones have a caloric value. And if you're taking a lot of them, there's a negative feedback loop that makes the body go, okay, my brain has plenty of ketones. I don't need to break all of this fat down. So you have people taking it all day, and they're taking it for the wrong reason, and it's being marketed as something wrong, and I've got a problem with that. And as well, you can make ketones for free really easily. Like burning fat. Like burning fat. Go for a run in the morning with me, and I'll even leave my shirt on. There you go. You know what people want? And your pants too. People want change They want change but they don't want to do anything They want to keep their current lifestyle But then they want to get lean and strong and all this It's a microwave society I just want a product or a pill that will change everything Without actually having to change anything Just take this pill And what if you can pee on a stick and it confirms change Oh well you know you take a ketone And now you're in ketosis You're not in ketosis It's like if I ate You are in ketosis but you're not ketogenic You don't have ketogenesis, which is kind of the point of fat breakdown. It's like if I took my blood sugar right now, and this morning my fasting blood sugar was 4.5.

if i drank like 400 grams of glucose and then took it it would be sitting at like 21 am i now diabetic yeah yeah exactly am i diabetic for the next two hours because i took a bolus dose of yeah that's that's yeah that's ridiculous to say but that's what the the ketone people are saying yeah right and the reason why those keto sticks exist is because to monitor people to make sure they don't get too many ketones and get kidney disease yeah ketoacidosis will kill you and so the funny thing is is the whole the original reason why those sort of tools exist is so people can measure their ketones and go oh wow i'm getting too much ketones i've got to drink more water i've got to increase my calories i've got to get back i've got to burn some yeah if you're so basically i've got to protect my kidneys if you're diabetic i need to shoot up some insulin because i got to get the ketones down exactly i've got a type 1 diabetic right now out of hong kong and He's on a very, very low-carb ketogenic cell diet because he's got H. pylori and SIBO. We're monitoring his beta-hydroxybutyrate. We're monitoring his blood ketones to make sure they don't get too high. He's having fantastic results, but he knows how to use insulin to keep that in the right area. A lot of people are buying the ketometers now. They'll take their ketones and say, look, I'm at 0.3. Then they'll take the Keto OS. Then, oh, all of a sudden, they're at 1.2. Well, now I'm in ketogenesis. You're not. No, you've got exogenous ketones. That's what you're measuring and reading. And the frustrating thing is in the past, it was all about trying to keep those levels down and keep the color off the sticks to make sure you're safe. Now people are trying to get the strongest, highest color on the stick as possible. They're dehydrating themselves. And they're constantly measuring things. And they've got this thing in their mind that if I can change the color on the sticks, I am burning fat. And it's not the case. They're actually, if you're changing color on sticks, you're excreting ketones. those ketones may be coming from a thing you've drunk or they may be coming from you breaking down fat but when you get too many of them your body can't stop you from drinking these things because you're part of a month subscription and so so basically um it sends a message back to your body saying because this person's on a month-long prescription and they want to actually use these products that they've paid for we're going to have to stop burning fat yes but in the short term with ketones what these people feel is remarkable results they feel energy they feel awake they feel strength and power and it does keep them out of starvation mode you know like because the calories and that are coming in they get less ghrelin and you know i mean and this is one of the advertising campaigns they use to sell ketones as you get less cravings you get more satiety you get better energy very similar things to we get when we're actually not in a calorie deficit and that's what they're actually achieving with it the problem is people get dependent on it and they don't want to change anything else so you have people you've got a society of people that have poor glucose sensitivity they have poor insulin management and then they take something that they can give them energy irrespective of all these things then like great i can eat all these carbs and then take these ketones so they're going about it kind of the wrong way yeah like if if somebody came to me and you know ketogenic dieting is is really popular now and they wanted to take ketones for like like the first two weeks to kind of get over the keto flu and all that yep that's a perfect time to take it exactly right yeah but you don't want to be dependent on taking it all the time so in other words too much of a good thing it can be used as a good tool but again it's over but that always seems to happen isn't it the pendulum just swings too far it's not a fat loss tool is to the other point no it's actually a performance tool it's a brain and a muscle performance thing and how does anyone know the calorific i like saying calorific because it sounds almost like terrific but does anyone know the calorific value i think it's nine grams per sorry nine yeah yeah nine calories per gram that's the same as fat same as fat yeah because that acts the same as fat. Yeah. I mean, it's a byproduct of fat burning. Yeah, acetone. It's a very similar structure. It's actually got a big oxygen in the middle of it if you want that ketones. If you want more energy and more calories, just drink booze, man. There's seven calories. You save two calories, and I feel pretty good when I drink. Yeah. And you probably perform pretty well. Yeah. Makes you a good dancer. You know, you feel like Superman. Yeah, I probably burn a lot more calories when I'm drunk. I'm a hell of a lot funnier. I can dance. You're more attractive as well. Oh, that's what they say when I get other people drunk. Yes. They're called bear goggles. Yeah. Bear goggles? Or beer. Is that a Kiwi version of saying beer goggles? Are you saying it... Learn how to speak English. Actually, New Zealand English is closer to the original English than the Australian version. Hang on. That word you just said, bear, how do you spell it? B-E-E-R. Okay. So you are referring to beer goggles. Cool. I was just trying to get... I wasn't sure if you wanted me to wear these hairy goggles with ears attached and go, I've got my bear goggles on. I'm myself a bear. There she goes again. No one can understand you, she-bear. Anyway. Funny. Also on the ketone thing, that's so common for people to want to jump into ketogenic dieting right now. I really like what my friend Dr Mike T Nelson who has like 15 PhDs and he one of the smartest guys that I know And he huge into the research And he teaches courses on metabolic flexibility. And he goes, look, let's look at the ketogenic diet. He goes, this is a backup survival pathway for when you can't find food. If you're trying to perform, why the fuck would you not want carbs? Why would you want to be in ketosis when that's like survival? and when carbs mean performance. So what we typically teach people is if you're interested in physique, yeah, go a little bit low carb. Do you have to go into ketosis? Absolutely not. But you might have to go lower carb to increase your metabolic flexibility so that you can modulate fat burning and keep a respiratory quotient where you want it. But if you're an athlete, you have to have carbs. Every time I've gone into ketosis, definitely my strength and my power has dropped. Absolutely. And I think when I was utilizing ketosis as an idea to help people is because they had over, gone too far on the carbohydrates. So effectively, it's almost like retraining their body. Hey, you don't need as many carbohydrates as you think you need. And giving the receptors a break from insulin so they can become sensitive to it again. But what's really important when you're talking about athletes and ketogenic, while in a ketogenic phase and training hard and pushing their limits and not performing well, but then starting to improve, we get excessive mitochondrial biogenesis we actually get tougher and stronger and it's a good strategy to use to actually improve someone's endurance or strength capacity but then what we do it's just like blood doping you know then we prior to the competition we throw all the carbs back in so the whole thing is is we put them into a deficit yeah they're baseball guys they swing around the heavy bat and then we take it off and off they go it's the same concept we make we put a handbrake on you to make it work harder for you like running with the parachute yeah yeah so then you build up um extra mitochondria you get extra energy part production pathways then when you throw the calories and the carbs and everything back in all of a sudden it's like let's go you know we're going back to that cycling which is what we talked about at the start which is about you know the high calorie diets the high you know the bulking phases and then the leaning phases in nature we have those cycles yeah all the seasons yeah yeah you know if you're living in a really cold environment there's no fruit you're ketogenic in winter yeah you meet and yeah thermogenic the whole time you're right it's a backup thing but if you supplement with ketones remember it does down regulate the basal metabolic rate because it is a survival does it really yeah so it down regulates your basal metabolic rate oh is that right i didn't even know that yeah it was in our podcast i don't think you were doing that one probably not i might have been i'm only talking about but it but it does it just down regulates basal metabolic rate which is not you know again it's as long as you're aware of it and you're happy to you know cut back your performance for that time and lose the weight that's fine yeah yeah when you talk about the cycling what we typically teach we teach trainers to think about things biochemically so instead of like the way we periodize things you think about periodizing mtor for a while and then you periodize ampk for a while and that could be that could be you know carb cycling like one day an mtor day one day an ampk day that could be a few weeks in one and a few weeks in the other but you're creating that balance right and um yeah so that's that's the way people need to start thinking about things and think about things in balance instead of just going full potato and going way on one side and then reacting and going way back on the other side that's what we're saying before actually just quickly as well too this is interesting and a plug if you like for the no way protein because no way doesn't have any um lucerne or very low amounts but yet it still um upregulates m tool but it also has an effect on PPAR as well too. So it's an unusual product that seems to sort of, you know, work on both sides of the coin. And some things can stimulate mTOR without actually stimulating growth factors. Like fish oil can stimulate mTOR in a whole different way that's not as inflammatory and still allows for better protein synthesis. Yeah. There's mTOR 1 and 2. So just to give you a bit of background with that, there's two different pathways. Right. What's the difference? Oh, one of them has, it actually describes it very well. You know, one is the mTOR1 that we classically talk about, which stimulates growth. Muscle growth. Yeah, and so the mTOR2 is another way to form growth of normal replication of cells in the cell cycle. So obviously, omegas are important for that. So the AMP would be perfect for that, but would have an anti-inflammatory effect as well too. Very much so. And a fat-burning effect. You know, it's a win-win-win situation. And so when you look at it, though, just for AMPV product, it's an essential fatty acid product, The ability for it to stimulate AMPK is also very high and its ability to stimulate mTOR. And the governing factor, whether it's driving AMPK or mTOR, is your calories. So if you're in a calorie surplus and using AMPV, then you'll be getting more mTOR activity. If you're in a calorie deficit using AMPV, like before fasted cardio, you're going to get more of the AMPK fat-burning effects. So it'll depend on your calorie surplus or your deficit of whether AMPK sorry AMPV is anabolic or catabolic I think a lot of people need to understand too that vitamins and minerals can do different things They situational dependent right So you hear people all the time say, oh, magnesium, it's a sleep supplement. Okay. So if it was a sleep supplement, if you take an electrolyte with magnesium and then you go squat, have you ever fallen asleep during a squat? No. It does help sleep. It helps relaxation, right? It's a calcium channel blocker. But if you take magnesium and you need ATP, and you're stimulating AMPK, then you're going to make more ATP and then you're going to make ATP more bioavailable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so when you have a look at magnesium itself involved in 600 different enzymes, they're not all driving one particular function. Not all putting you to sleep, obviously, are they? No, hell no. Yeah, that's a good point with magnesium in particular. You actually, I think you describe magnesium really well when you say it creates an off switch. It doesn't turn it off. It makes sure you're capable of switching off. That's right. Yeah. so um and you'll find that when this is it goes back to our original point if you are magnesium deficient and that sort of stuff there is a time and a place for mega dosing magnesium you'll know when you've corrected your deficiency and you're going over because you'll get the squirts um but a lot of these things don't have those sort of side effects you know like a lot of the b vitamins and that sort of stuff you overdose them they get into your body you might get some colored urine thinking oh that's fine it just goes straight through your own but on the way it creates all sorts of problems you know can i can i address another beef about vitamins when they say oh it just makes your urine expensive and passes straight through you of course it passes through you because if you built up with vitamins it'd become toxic yeah yeah so this weird thing that you shouldn't think i mean i shouldn't drink water because that comes out the other end is water yeah it does stuff makes your urine yeah yeah you know and it's like it's a ridiculous scenario so you know we we do find excesses of vitamins we do find it's a really good point that and that's one of the things in the papers they say is the reason why we have got vitamin toxicity is occurring right now because we've got a lot of fortified foods we've got a lot of synthetic vitamins going on and people aren't sweating as much so we are urinating and that sort of stuff but we're not perspiring as much so then we can't urinate the excess that we would perspire and that's a major problem with vitamin toxicity and exercise obviously panting it out it's another way that yeah as well too so you know again if you're sedentary you're at more risk of obviously overdosing with vitamins very much so you know the first overdose of vitamin was 1913 with Mertz, of course, in the South Pole. Of course. And so, you know, when he had his dog... When he had his dog? Yeah. What was it, vitamin A? Yeah, vitamin A. Yeah, he was an explorer. And he sent himself blind, didn't he? Yeah. Classic sign, because the first thing that happened to him, he went blind from excessive vitamin A. But what do we say? Vitamin A, doctor in a signature, looks like an eye, helps you see in the night. Luckily, because you don't have any black. It helps with vision, purple production in your eye for night vision, if you want to know that nerdy detail. But, you know, it's... Night blindness, yeah, a lot of people suffer from that. So you get some more vitamin A if you're diagnosed with night blindness. But don't eat your dog's liver, you'll die. No, no, don't eat dog liver. That's bad. Especially if it's supposed to be pulling your sleeve. It's funny because the other guy that was with him, Nins, actually fell down a cravat. What's so funny about that? No, no, it's funny because... What an ass. Who's this guy? No, no, listen to me. Hear me out. Oh, look, you've pulled an overmat. Let me kick you while you're down. If we can make jokes, it's 100 years ago. We've got that 100-year limit. Too soon. Too soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's 100 years, I think. But anyway, was he blind and didn't see the damn gap? Or was it one of those things? Oh, maybe. Do you know what I mean? Or maybe he was pushed, Steve. Oh, this is a new twist on it. He wasn't pushed. He was probably looking for his dog. No. He was probably walking around. Great stock. Have you seen my dog? That barbecue smells good. He was the guy carrying most of the food. And of course, he went down the cravat with the food. Oh, no. So that forced him to eat more dog liver. Oh, my gosh. So it got worse after that. Where's this place? It sounds like a terrible place to holiday. Antarctica. I've never gone there. No, me neither. That would be horrible. But, you know, of course, you know, Mawson came back and reported on all this. So that's one man's. He probably pushed them both down. What a load of shit. I reckon it was. I reckon so. And he made the story up. He ate all the food. Yeah, something went crazy. He ate all the food. Pushed old mate that was going to say, I'm going to tell the other bloke that he ate all the food. Pushes him down a crack. The other guy, here, I made you a burger. A bit of dog liver. Watch this little fool go by. And then he goes, this idiot ate the dog. He fell down a hole. I'm fine. There's a moral to the story to this, guys. Don't travel with, what's his name? Don't let anybody push. Morton. Don't travel with Morton. You had a really good point there about the sweating. People tend to think that because B vitamins are water soluble that you're just going to pee them out or sweat them out. But how many women do we know don't sweat? Yeah. And how many people don't really pee a whole lot or drink a lot of water? Yeah. You get stressed out and aldosterone and cortisol goes up. You start retaining sodium. You're going to retain all those vitamins and you're not urinating them out. Yep. Ladies glow for the, yeah. what ladies glow men perspire horses sweat yeah anyway but no that's sexist because a lot of women do perspire okay so you see he trying to be politically correct What do I say See this is how it goes wrong when you try to be politically correct Yeah, this is the wrong way to be politically correct. I'm the one who has to be politically correct. Like, it's fine for Steve to cross-dress. It's fine for John to be gay. There is no problem with that. No problem at all. Here's why I see anyone listen to the podcast. That's why. She's the least politically correct person I know. Really? Oh, yeah. Can you even get preformed vitamin A in a supplement here? I don't think you can. I don't even know. I think you can only buy beta carotene. Yeah. TGA won't let you do it. We'd have to do it as a food, but we can get food from the US. Yeah. The US is like the Wild West. You can just get whatever. They don't even care. Typically dog liver we use here. Just dose it properly. There's beta carotene, right? That's what we have. Yeah, we got crappy beta carotene. The reason why, so in Australia, it's a messed up thing. TGA will not let you make Nutritive claims on Plants containing nutrients You're only allowed to use synthetics Which is crazy messed up And the reason why Is because when you register a product with TGA You're allowed to register your recipe once It's not allowed to change Variation in plants occur So sometimes we might need to add more Sometimes we need to add less Every time you do that You've got to register a whole new product The only thing that are consistent Are things that are synthetically made such as beta carotene, stealphatocopherol. So then back to the loop to the start of our podcast when they do these meta-analyses on people taking vitamins, they're not, they're taking beta carotene, they're taking vitamin E megadoses and when they talk about antioxidants, that's what they're talking about, vitamin A and E and maybe some C. The rest of the time, everyone's doing everything dodgy and synthetic. And in Australia, like for example, we talked about folic acid toxicity. If you make a multivitamin in Australia, you're not allowed to use 5-MTHFs, You're not allowed to use the other folinates. You can only use folic acid. Again, the reason why, it's consistent. The levels are consistent. But also, when it comes to studying these things, instead of extracting carotenoids from plants to study, or instead of extracting folate, methylfolates, or standardising a plant to be methylfolate and then seeing what happens, it's easier to use synthetics. And they do all their studies on the synthetics. So when it comes time to make a decision of what is well studied, what should we allow people to use, the folic acid might have a pile of papers a foot high and the um and the methyl folate might only be a little bit because there's no one's investing research into it so then they go oh folic acid's backed by science it's proven it's the real stuff and that's just how we end up this way and but the worst thing is too for us reading labels so you have a look at a label you get if i get a natural plant vitamin a source um for a carrot let's just say for example i wanted a carrot extract and i say standardized to vitamin a i actually standardize it to beta carotene so people get the hang of reading a label saying carrot extract standardized to beta carotene this much then the next product carrot extract standardized to this much beta carotene people learn to look for beta carotene and buy the product with the highest amount of beta carotene they do that for a while then they go let's just ditch the carrot bit we'll put beta carotene 10 milligrams compared to these guys did one milligram we're heaps better and that's just how we've ended up with these things where all these synthetics are looked at as natural when i tell people that folic acid doesn't occur inside a plant in nature they go a load of rubbish like that's the most natural thing hey you know so but yeah well it's not you know one of the things we've seen um in the past couple of years is a lot of people with a bco1 gene issue so they they have a dampened ability to break beta carotene down into vitamin a so um what we found was we had a we had a seminar in perth and we were telling them you should eat your veggies you have to eat fruits and veggies if you're not willing to eat that you don't deserve to eat any meat so everybody in the class 30 people they're pumping veggies pumping veggies seven or eight months later i come back and half the class all their skin turned orange and yellow yeah yeah if you have the bco1 snip that's what's going to happen and we had some girls in there that had some thyroid issues they had messed themselves up doing contest prep and i said okay we'll do like a doctor dr vasquez like vitamin load for like a week and some of these girls were losing four, five, six pounds in like seven to ten days by taking preformed vitamin A because they weren't getting any out of their diet. Yeah, man. What a percentage that is in the population. I can't remember the stamp of that, but basically what you're talking about is the beta carotene converts or the carotenoids convert to vitamin A. Some people have that problem with that gene conversion. It's zinc dependent. It's a few other things dependent. Are those the guys that go mental with Roaccutane? Oh, yeah, yeah. I contain toxicity is very common because they use a synthetic form of vitamin A which is a cis9 trans 11 version which is completely not found in a pretty high dose to yeah they they used to use like a lot more what I do now but still even now the side effects are horrendous for fact activity is pretty yeah there's a there's a farm was a medical conference on a dermatology on

speaking in a couple of weeks, and they're talking about the dangers of Roaccutane there. So that'll be huge. That was my first ever referral as a naturopath from a doctor. It was a doctor who sent his son to me who had suicidal depression after his dad put him on Roaccutane. And he said, look, that's all of a sudden going to become serious. Yeah, it's pretty full on. Guys, we are running short for time. So, Luke, I'm going to throw it over to you. Any last words of wisdom or any final requests? Designer meme, come on. What's that? Look both ways before you cross the street. Wow. Okay. Never trust a fart. Wow. That is a really good one. Never pass up a boner. Steve's right with you there. Yeah, I'm 49 now. What was that one? I missed it. The exquisite erection selection, I think you said. So this never pass up on a boner. So every time we get Woody, we got to do something? Well, we don't know. But you should. Really? Wow, I'd never get any bloody work done. What's the difference? Steve-O, any words of wisdom? Look, just be careful. It's not that big, Steve. Put your hands down. Oh, I'm sorry. It's about vitamins. That's more realistic. Vitamins are not created equally. We have synthetic ones and we have natural ones. The research that come up with studies that show that vitamins are bad, like this one, is because they're the synthetic ones. and they're testing things that aren't found in food unless they're fortified back in food. And it's mass medication. And they're still synthetic. They're putting synthetics back into nature. It's mass medication. I'm not a fan of synthetic vitamins at all. No. And again, our catch cry always is eat fresh, eat local, eat organic where you possibly can. And this is one of the best things you can do. Food is medicine. Get back into that. And again, this is... So many times I've heard it, and I appreciate it for those people that have heard this a million times. That's why we created Multifood from nature, all the bioflavonoids, and the results that we get are so astounding from people every day writing in testimonials of how they've improved some serious health some just with regards to energy uh anyway well i you know i every every class somebody asked about multi-food and i tell them the same thing i said man i looked at the bottle of this and i said matt you're full of shit and he said well try it and i did and i went about two months on it and then when i ran out like i didn't feel anything while I was on it. When I ran out, I went, man, I don't feel normal. And every person that's come to our courses says the same thing. They didn't notice anything until they ran out, and then they were like, wow, I feel off. Yep. And they're going back to normal because it's a gradual incline, a gradual improvement, if you like, in terms of so many processes in the body. And then when you take it away again, it's like the stock market. It's like they say that the bull climbs upstairs and the bear jumps out the window. It's the same thing. takes time going up and then boom all of a sudden when when it drops it drops quick well and a lot of people are going to look at that and they're going to look at the label and think that there's not a whole lot of stuff in there but what they're not seeing is what you don't put on the label it's the 8 000 chemicals that we don't have a name for and we don't know what the fuck they do we just know they make the the processes work better what's really funny is that we actually had a conference call we're waiting for you that's what the meeting we had today with our growers and the demand for this stuff is so high that we're having to ration it. Like the demand for our stuff, because we're obviously expanding globally now, we can't supply it to all of our customers in the United States. So for us to increase, to buy more, we actually grow more farms, build more farms, and then they grow more food. And then each thing, we've got to grow it, we've got to test it, we've got to measure it, we've got to predict the yield, But we actually got to pre-allocate dirt and patches of garden to us to actually be able to keep up the demand. And it's out of control. And here's the classic thing. If you did it the wrong way, the old way, which is synthetic, you would never have a problem with supply. Of course you don't. You just go, give me that chemical. It's as stable as anything in store. This is my concern, though. No problem. Fire up the bacteria. Feed them some crap. Yeah, what everyone's doing with multi-food, you know, to compare to or to copy it or something. Because like you're saying, you look at the back of multi-food, you don't see crazy levels. people still got in their head that more is better that i can't overdose on natural stuff so take as much of it as possible i want more value for my money based on numbers on a label but that is not the way it works we need just the right amount coming through and like you're saying all the other little bits and pieces that are in it make all the difference now what the big concern is is people are getting like greens powders which i don't know what the hell that is it's basically sawdust from the chinese factories with green and everything like trust me because i've ordered some in to try to test them and identify some things in them and they're you don't want to see the results um but what they do is for i can get you about a 60 day supply of a multivitamin pre it costs a dollar 30 so i can mix that in with your sawdust and i can call it a greens formula standard and then as a multivitamin and then the people read on the label they say oh it got all the carrots and the alfalfas and everything like then i've got on the nutrition panel all these vitamins they make the assumption that those vitamins are coming out of those plants which is not the case you've got a synthetic blend of crap thrown in with a green colored sawdust crap and are you taking crap i mean the easiest way for me to understand it is like when you're building a house okay vitamins are the bricks but then you need the mortar you need the wire you need the windows you need the doors you need the the carpets you need everything to make a house everyone's grabbing bricks and going i'm going to build a house out of this it's completely useless so yeah anyway matt um was your was that it for you because we really need to wrap it up we're going with too long gosh human he's wrapping it yeah why can't we just we'll just go for hours Yeah, we just chat. That's what we said. Who said Humpty Dumpty was an egg? Nobody. Exactly. So why the hell does everyone think Humpty Dumpty? Typical example of what's wrong with the world. No one ever said Humpty Dumpty was an egg. The whole world roams around drawing pictures of an egg. This is exactly why they think our vitamins are rubbish and synthetics are good. Damn Humpty Dumpty. I do have one last thing. Yeah. If that's all right. We'll make time for you. Steve, you were talking about most of the studies are done with synthetics, But what people need to understand too is most of the studies are done on single nutrients and not multiple nutrients together and not how they're found in food, which totally changes everything. And I attended a retreat in Costa Rica, and Dr. Brian Walsh was there, and he was talking. He did a detox lecture and talked about toxicity. And one of the interesting things was when you look at all the research, they're only testing one thing. we don't really yet know what happens when you combine a lot of different toxic chemicals and also what happens when it's when you're taking it for a very long time because what they do is they give small dosages or they'll give big dosages in a short period of time and there's no synergistic effect when you start adding these things together that you have a synergistic effect they compound over time so we don't know it's the same thing with the vitamins you can find all this research that says that a vitamin doesn't work or it does this or does that but you don't really no unless you see the vitamin with all the other stuff it's supposed to be with like all the phytochemicals yep it's a classic sign or even b2 for example it's been shown you overdose on b2 it actually creates b6 b12 folate deficiencies so you sit there they go do a dose and then of this study and say this thing's terrible for you well it's like nice and it increased in in one study mortality and there was like oh and there was an asterisk on the study and it found that they were giving it with a drug, the niacin, to reduce the flushing, nicotine and acid. What's the drug? The drug was banned in 2013 because of toxicity. Yeah, but that's not important. Yeah. It's like there's a little asterisk in the study, and it was published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. You just have to love it. Any opportunity. You know what most people do, especially in the bodybuilding world? They read an abstract because they're too lazy to read through the whole thing. Oh, yeah. Most of them don't know. It's on page 10. It's right in the back there. Most people don't know how to read a study anyways. I love you mentioned that. Like Matt was having a conversation. This is when he used to, I don't know how you got into a debate with this idiot. And Matt's going through and effectively providing, you know, peer-reviewed articles to support his case. I think some of them were Cochran, if I remember correctly as well too. And the guy writes back to him and goes, yeah, yeah, well, you're just an abstract scientist. And I thought to myself, my gosh, if there's anybody who- So let me put it this way. Someone said, have you got any references to support your argument? And I said, yeah, I'm actually playing Lego with my kids at the moment. I can quickly send you a couple through that I can find on my phone, and I'll show you how I can find these things quite easily on my phone, and you could do this too. And let me give you some examples of how to quickly find free full-text articles showing these things. It comes back, you're an abstract scientist, bro, you're effing pleb, and all that sort of stuff. And then that's when I actually deleted Facebook because I was actually playing Lego with my boys, which is much more important than dealing with someone that's calling me effing pleb. Anyway. I'm two critics for every ride. And he said, hang on, what did you... And then I read the comments later. Some other people went on and said, hey, man, give him a break. He said he's playing with his boys. He's actually supplied you with the references that you've requested. And now you're attacking him over the quality of the fact that he's provided those references. And then he said, what did you expect from him? And the bloke wrote, I expected him to actually pretty much write an essay of what... He expected me to review all of those things, write it down as a... In a Facebook comment, still, by the way. and then say my opinion and then cite those references. And I say, I'm not fucking playing Lego. But that's the problem when you start. And in our industry as well, too. It's funny. And that was about sweeteners, by the way. Yeah, right. It was. And you were proven right time and time again. But this is the thing. Your mother ever used to say to you, bad company corrupts good character Eagles don hang around with turkeys I mean the other one that really popular is that what is it lions don concern themselves with the opinion of sheep You got to find good people to hang out with and people who are open to having honest discussions, admitting when they're wrong. And that's a hard thing to do. That takes a lot of humility, which there is a great lack of in our industry. Or going back and go, you know what, that makes sense. Even when you approach somebody, they're level to say, look, I appreciate where you're coming from, but that's not what I found. here's what I found. There's a bit of humility when you know you're right as well too. And that's what stifles debate. That's what stifles progress is that people are so, so care about their profile. They so care about winning a Facebook argument. I love that how to win friends and influence people. If you win an argument, you've lost because the person that you've won against hates you for it. You've made them look bad in front of their peers. You have to be gentle and there's just not enough of that anymore. There's no gentlemen and ladies anymore. Everyone's just out to slit everybody's throat. Facebook, it is. It's a cesspool. Well, anyway, Jeff, we're running out of time. We've already gone way over, thanks to you guys. Sorry. Okay, we done, guys? I think we're done. That's it? That's it. Going? Going? Oh, let me tell you this. Oh, shut up, Matt. Thanks, Luke, for coming. It's good to have you back on the show, mate. What are you doing next? We've got a last time for your plug. Have you got anywhere where people can see you? Give your website a plug, your Facebook page a plug. Muscle Nerd was plurals or plural yeah musclenerds.net yeah we're also on Facebook at Muscle Nerds I will be speaking at the Irish Strength Institute in late July at their symposium I'll be speaking where's that that it's in Ireland in Ireland it's in Ireland I didn't hear you say that yeah so it's Irish Strength Institute that will be I think it's July 25th they're going to have a huge symposium with a concert and all this cool shit in like Dublin or it's Malahide which is right outside of Dublin. It's a fantastic area, Ireland. And then we've got the Swiss Symposium. That's going to be right outside of Toronto in late October. We're doing a course in early October in Atlanta. We're doing one in Vancouver sometime around there. But if they go to the website, we post all that stuff. And if they get on our page, we post all of that stuff too. And what's some of the cool things you're going to learn there? What's the hook? Where do people want to go and learn? So basically, we're just, you know, this is the problem with the industry is everyone wants to teach like advanced this or the other, and no one knows all the basic fundamental foundational stuff, right? They want to teach that one weird trick or that one hack without actually knowing the physiology. So what we teach in our foundations course, we teach just basic self-physiology and basic bioenergetics. So how do you turn food into energy? Where can you find those handbrakes? How do you release those handbrakes? And then things like digestion, assimilation, how you actually get things from the plate into the cell. And then we talk about elimination. I talk about poop a lot. And then we talk about the stress response and how stress, chronic stress, creates immune system dysregulation, intestinal permeability, long-term inflammation and insulin resistance, things like that. And, yeah, we teach people how to fix basically the metabolism. So the foundation course is more nutritional biochemistry. And then we have a program design course that's online. and then you also come to a seminar as well and that that one we teach exercise metabolism right so that way what we're going to do eventually is create one like a whole year's worth of courses where you do everything right and that it's going to we don't we don't teach protocols we teach or methods we just take it because there's plenty of people teaching that we don't need to teach that what we teach is why the methods work what are the actions in the body so that you can pick the right protocols and methods for your clients instead of just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Nine times out of ten, most experts that you find out there have got good memories and they've learned something by rope. And this is what I say about Matt as well too and Steve too is that it's very rare to actually talk to people who truly understand it. It's not just I can repeat the study that I've seen, but they actually have an understanding of what's going on behind the body, which obviously, Luke, while you've become so renowned because you understand and you can explain these things so people have a true understanding. It's the difference between giving someone a fish or teaching them how to fish. If somebody's not quite working, you've got the brains to work it out, not like keep banging your head, this must work, this must work. You know how they say things like, the youth is wasted on the young. It's the same with basics. It's so important for advanced people to redo the basics because when you first learn the basics, you know nothing. And then you bluff your way through to pass. Like you're saying, you rope learn things, you kind of remember enough to pass your exams and that sort of stuff. But until you actually been out in the clinic in the real world trying everything the basics didn make sense If you go back as an advanced practitioner and therapist and go back and relearn the basics the whole thing all aha like oh now you totally forget these things or you never really had that understanding this is why i love chatting with steve-o so much because steve-o like understands the basics so no i know i don't understand the basics very well because i can't teach them to people you know steve-o understands the basics so much that where i have little levels of confusion i can go back and say steve-o what's and he can just talk me basic biochemistry because in my training i did this chem biochemistry and stuff like really early and you get all this bombarded with information and none of it makes sense because you don't know where it fits and how it works and what is but when you're advanced you go back and redo it like that's one of the benefits of me i did a advanced diploma originally it was only a three-year dodgy course but then they made it a bachelor of health science so three years later after being in a clinic you know for three years and working people for three years with that base amount of information. I went back to uni to do these advanced things where they just give you a refresher on the basic. I learned so much in that one more year because I had a point of reference and I had something that it made sense to me. I knew where these things fit all of a sudden. Changed everything. I recommend anyone that thinks they're elite, challenge yourself with the basics again and I guarantee all of a sudden you'll be spending the whole time going, aha, you have all these light bulb moments the whole way through. If you ever speak to someone that's been in the industry 20 years, they spend this time kind of learning some basics and then they go into really advanced stuff when they don't really need it. And then they circle back around. They realize if I just stick to the fundamental stuff, I get results. And I don't have to do anything crazy because I understand that all I'm doing is giving the body some information and asking it to adapt in a certain way. But if you don't understand that basic level stuff, then you have no idea when you give somebody a certain training protocol, conditioning protocol, food protocol, supplement protocol, you have no idea what it's doing and how it fits all the pieces of the puzzle fit together so that's the advanced only stuff works if you've built a base foundation with the basics absolutely and that's why we always talk about the pillars the base foundation making sure you're capable of inducing change for the advanced movers and shakers to come in and force things to do weird stuff exactly you've got to have a particular capacity or ability so as we're talking about magnesium make sure you're capable of switching off it doesn't necessarily switch you off the basics make sure you're capable of creating change. The advanced stuff is there just to force a fast dynamic. If you're training Usain Bolt, then yeah, you might need some advanced stuff because 0.01% improvement could be $20 million more. But he'll already be doing the basics as autopilot. The basics for him is autopilot, and then you go to the next level. But Joe Average and Susie Muffintop doesn't need advanced stuff. They can't even walk and chew gum at the same time. They think that a peanut is a solid source of protein. Like there's so much basic stuff they need to know that trainers just bypass and go straight to crazy protocols when they don't actually, they don't even drink enough water, eat enough protein. That's why it's so important to ask questions for any therapists or practitioners out there. Spend so much time doing that symptom picture and asking questions and don't assume people are drinking water, eating vegetables or actual food. The Handbrake to Health seminar that we did when we went around Australia, one of the most enlightening things for me personally learning is the fact that you're right. We got into relatively advanced levels in terms of hormones and the endocrine system and all sorts of nutrition things. And all these things definitely have their place, and they do work, and they're important. But the handbrakes to health, looking at taking away some of the basic things that people overlook all the time. And again, even with our supplementation, with the Gut Right, with the multi-food, these are actually core foundation products that are way more important than anything else that we sell. And there's a couple more to come as well, too, that Matt's worked out. that these four products together effectively are it, but they're incredibly sophisticated, but at the same time incredibly basic, and they're what everybody needs and used to have in their diet and in their nutrition when we used to eat well and whole balanced food. Same thing with training as well, too. You can see if you skip those base foundation things or you don't have a grip on them and you go down the wrong path, unless you understand them, you can't see where you've gone wrong. So I love it. Love it. Luke, thanks for coming on to the show. Thanks, guys. Jeff, you're waffling a bit. I think we need to wrap this up. I definitely think we will. We've gone way over time. Way over time. Steve, Matt? No, Steve, Matt. Get stuffed. And will we... These plebs. I can't believe I have to hang around with them. Terrible. Bad company, mum. Bad company corrupts good characters. These guys. Absolutely. And we'll be back next week. Yep. Thanks, guys. All right, have a good one. See you guys. Bye. Thanks for listening. And remember, question everything. Well, except what we say.