What no one is telling you about fat loss: stubborn fat, cardio, and more

# What no one is telling you about fat loss: stubborn fat, cardio, and more

**Channel:** Nikias | Online Coach & Certified Nutritionist
**Published:** 2025-12-05
**Source:** https://youtube.com/watch?v=lhJf_WQ496Q

Hello and welcome to the Fit to Transform podcast, where you learn how to train and diet effectively and, most importantly, how to maintain those results for life, once and for all. I'm Michias Tomasiello, a transgender training and nutrition coach working online with anyone who's ready for a true lifestyle transformation anywhere they may be in the world. As a friendly reminder, any and all information provided is for educational purposes only. You should consult with your doctor before implementing any changes to your diet and exercise program. With that disclaimer out of the way, thank you for being here. Now grab yourself a cup of tea or pre-workouts and enjoy. you dear listeners just a quick heads up that my audio in this interview is going to sound quite tinny i apologize for that but fortunately luke does most of the talking here and his audio is perfectly clean i've been experimenting with different mics and different headphones and unfortunately these experiments didn't go as i planned thank you for your understanding and now let's get into the interview. Yo, dear listeners. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today I have an interview with Luke Lehman. Luke, welcome. Hey, how you doing? Today, what I would like to discuss with you is the physiology of calories, aspects of it that don't get talked about much because most people stop at the typical comment that we all hear about, it's just the calorie deficit. So as long as you eat fewer calories and move more, you're going to lose body fat. And before we get into that, just like I do with all of my new guests, I would like to ask you this question to introduce you to my audience. Who are you? What do you do? And why are you so awesome at this? Oh, man. It's so hard for me to talk about myself. I've always been the kind of guy that just pushes it off. so I don't know how to I don't know how to answer the awesome thing um yeah look uh I've just I've been I'm an educator I still train people I'm probably one of the few educators in the business who still actively train people most of them don't and I think that's a I think it's a big mistake I think you still have to maintain a roster of at least a handful of clients because that's where you test your theories out that's where you see things that's where you sharpen your sword so I guess business owner with my wife. I'm a science nerd. I just love fitness and health and training, physiology. And I love the biochemistry and the physiology, not just the training aspect. I got into it as a kid for the training. And over the years, I got into it at a weird time. This is going way back in the 80s, where we didn't have the internet. So we had to figure everything out through books or like somebody's brother's uncle's trainer would tell you some stuff you know and you would just pick up stuff as you went and and studying physical culture history it's a completely different world to now where you can just get all the information at the at the touch of a finger but the problem is now you don't know like there's so much information what information is good and what information is is not good what you know so it's hard to discern with that. So that's where I come in with the educational side of the business is I read research, I look at that, and I compare it to what I found with my experience with the experience of my colleagues with the experience of my coaches and my clients. And I funnel down the things that people really need to know. And I try to disseminate what is the actual truth of what's going to get things done. Because for a long time, we've had this evidence based crowd who only look at, they only look at peer reviewed research and peer reviewed research is really important, but we also have to understand that it's limited. They, when you do a research paper, they're looking at one or two different things. They're using a low subject pool. They're using not very long time span. Like it's not uncommon. A long study for what we do is, is 12 of 16 weeks, and that's not really long enough to see anything. And usually like 13 subjects, seven in the experimental, six in the control. So while research is important, there's a lot of limitations on that. And so it's hard for me to call that like evidence, where a lot of the evidence comes from being in the gym, under the bar, training people who are under the bar, and then making sure you take meticulous notes and data. So I like to, I try to compare both of them. And probably my favorite quote is by Dr. Lauren Bannock. Don be evidence be evidence informed And I think that to kind of whittle that down a little bit more evidence comes from a lot of different places You don have to be a scientist in a lab coat in a million lab to get evidence You get evidence every day with the clients that you train. And so I try to teach coaches, this is what I found over the last 30 years. This is what the science says or the formal science. where can that stuff meet in the middle because both sides are equally as important so yeah i guess that's i guess that's what makes me awesome is i kind of stay in between and i make my own decisions not just based on what research says but on what i see in the research and then weighing that against what i see in actual practice and being able to take really sciencey mumbo jumbo stuff and water it down enough to where people can understand it that don't have a solid science background, but don't water it down so much that it loses its value. I agree. That's definitely what makes you awesome. For one, you are awesome. Otherwise, you wouldn't be. Thank you. That's my podcast. Number two, I thought that that was exactly what made you stand out to me because, dear listeners, I got to meet Luke somewhat recently at the end of August. I went to a seminar that he hosted with his company, and I was absolutely so impressed with not just the amount of knowledge that you have, Luke, which is clearly the fruit of decades in the fitness industry, but the way that you can deliver that in a way that even people who are not at your level, because I don't think there are many people at your level, can understand. So that's why I wanted to have you here today, because my listeners, there may be some coaches among them but a lot of them are my clients so members of the general population and i want them to have access to somebody who can do that who can educate and help them make sense of what evidence we do have with the amount of experience in practice that you have in a way that they can easily understand and apply to their lives so to get into the first question then during the the seminar that I just mentioned, you used this quote, you brought up this quote that I mentioned earlier, it's just a calorie deficit. And as far as I can remember, you mentioned that it is technically correct, but it's also overtly simplistic. And I think that's a great place to start with my questions. And my first one would be, why do you think that? Yeah, okay. So look, at the end of the day, it losing weight or putting weight on is a simple algebraic expression. It's a minus B or a plus C or a minus B or a plus B equals C. That's it like that. If you eat more than you expend, you will put on weight. If you eat less than you expend, you will lose weight. But now the nuance comes into what is that weight made of? Because if you were to go into a surplus, and you didn't lift weights, most of what you would put on would be body fat, which is probably not what somebody's goal is. And if you were to go into a deficit and not lift weights, you would lose a lot of muscle tissue, which is again, what we're trying to keep people from doing. Like if, if, if I had someone hire me to coach them and they said, I want to lose weight and I go, okay, this is how we do it. We strength train at least three days, four, if you can two, if that's, That's the absolute minimum. That's all you can do two days a week. And you have to lift weights and we go into a deficit. If they go, no, no, no, I would rather not lift weights and just starve myself. I'm like, no, it doesn't work like that. Anybody can lose weight. Do a lot of cardio, like train for a marathon. Don't eat any protein and starve yourself. You will lose tons of weight, but you'll be so unhappy with the way you look and you will completely wreck your health. So there are things that we have to add to that SECO equation that dictates what you're gaining, what you're losing, whether you're doing it in a healthy manner versus unhealthy manner. And then if we get into the real big nuance of, say, programming, how much weight training do you do? Well, that depends on how your diet is set up. How much deficit do you do? Well, that depends on how your weight training is set up. I think you probably remember me saying you have three main levers you can pull. You can lean on diet, you can lean on training, or you can lean on a little bit of both. So that basically means is that if I'm going to go into a deficit to lose body fat and I want to lean on my nutrition, okay, we have to write the nutrition first. Then we have to write the training program and the training program has to match up with the nutrition. Okay if I gonna lean on training I have to write the training first and then I have to write the nutrition in line with the training Now if I going to utilize a little bit of both I have leverage to just equalize both of those at the same time, right? So for example, I'm a big fan, you heard me talk about protein sparing, modified fast, you heard me talk about big deficits. And that's one thing that a lot of people have gotten away from with the anti diet crowd. And they are, you shouldn't diet dieting doesn't work diets the only thing that works like a deficit is the only thing that works whether you get that through training or whether you get that through your diet you have to it's again we're right back at seco you have to respect that energy balance equation and it really shouldn't be calories in versus calories out what it should be is energy in and energy out because calories aren't a tangible thing it's a unit of measurement right And since this is mainly going to be like a lot of your clients are going to listen to this, this is something they need to understand. Calories don't exist. It's a theoretical construct of a measurement of energy. So it'd be like this. So originally, I'm American originally, but I live in Australia now. And so I'm fully on the metric system. I wish America would get on the metric system and make things so much easier. But if I go this, if I said this was an inch, you would say, no, it's not. It's 2.54 centimeters. We're both talking about the same measure of distance. We're just using two different measuring systems. So if we go, I'm going to measure energy in and energy out. You could say calories if you're a normal person or you talk to a scientist and they go, no, no, it's kilojoules. They're both the same thing. You could measure either one. So people need to understand it's realistically energy out, energy in, and that's all that matters. Now, when we go into more nuance, calories in, that's going to be dependent not just what you're eating on paper, it matters what you can actually digest and what you can break down, what you can assimilate, and also what you excrete or don't excrete. it matters your calories out can matter on a lot of things what's the health of your mitochondria what are you doing for your non non-exercise activity thermogenesis what macros are you eating can alter this how you're digesting and eliminating things can can change this any type of medical pathology can change this medications can change this age can change this Sex can change this. Genetics can change this. So now we go, well, okay, shit. Calories in, calories out. That's what everybody says. I'm like, yeah, that's true. However, that's not the whole, you could write a whole book just on that concept and not even scratch the surface of it. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And you've mentioned that a lot of people have gotten away, for example, for really aggressive deficits. And what you talked about just now at the end was essentially hinting at the fact that different physiologies will respond differently to fat loss. And I'm connecting the two together because something that stood out to me during the seminar was that you were discussing aspects of fat loss that I've only ever heard. from Lyle McDonald and I've not really heard any more ever since. So we're talking about even before my time, not that I've been in the fitness community for a long time, but he's been around for 30 plus years and he's literally the only one who points these things out. One thing that I would like to discuss in a little bit more depth is how different physiologies can impact that less differently. And back during the seminar, you talked about three specific categories of people that I would like my audience to hear more about as well. Yeah. And I was going to bring up Lyle McDonald because I've got to give credit where credit's due. He's the one that got me onto the three categories and the concept of some of this stuff. And no matter what your opinion of Lyle is, because some people love him, some people hate him. He's just brutally honest and he just doesn't care. I will say he's almost always right. So he's very rarely wrong on things. Like there are a couple of things I disagree with him with, but most of the stuff I'd say is spot on. And I remember when I, when I first started training, he used to train girls out of a gym that I worked out at. So I saw him like training his power lifters and things that was god that was decades ago and that was back when like atkins had had not really come back out yet it even predated actually had the atkins revolution or atkins in like the 70s and then you had the actin's rebel new rebel uh revolution thing that came out maybe it was that time or just a small time after that but he i i read dan duchesne body opus and i was reading all these old books on keto dieting And I was like that seems really interesting And it really kind of how it lines up to how I eat anyways because I was a protege of Charles Poliquin. And this is before I ever met Charles. But I tried the way Charles said to eat, which is basically protein and veggies. Just eat protein and veggies and healthy fats and see what happens. And it worked fantastic and well for me. And it worked really well for most of my clients, not everybody, because some people are inherently more tuned in to having carbohydrates or at least higher amounts of carbohydrates than others. So everybody's genetically different and physiologically different. But I remember the red body opus and then Lyle did a whole thing. I think it was like 1996 or so or 1998. He did a whole thing on a webpage where he did body opus and he tracked everything and he did weeks of this stuff. And I was like, man, that's really cool. And that got that got me going with all of this stuff of reading like, Dr. Michael Eads, protein power, reading the body opus stuff, reading anything I get my hands on the old Atkins books, whatever. And then then that stuff actually exploded. You had the Atkins new revolution, you had South Beach diet, all this stuff. And I found that that worked for probably 60 to 70% of my clients. And so So years later, I go back and I went, I'm going to review that stuff again because I use it. And I said, this would be really good in a seminar because Lyle's never going to teach seminars and not everybody likes Lyle. So I'll do this and add in my stuff and other people's stuff, package it all up, give credit, obviously, because I'm a big proponent of that, and go out and I'll go out and teach coaches this because a lot of coaches don't know any of this stuff. And a lot of, especially younger coaches, they don't study physical culture history. They don't know who these people are. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go out and I'm going to teach them this stuff and show them, yes, calories in, calories out works for everybody. However, that doesn't mean it's optimal because there are certain times where your physiology is really different between different levels of body fatness. And there are things that are inherently faster and easier for some people than others. So with the categories that Law laid out, you have a category one, two, and three. Your category one people would be the people who are really lean. Those are the people that, you know, guys under 15% body fat. You're pretty lean. If we're not talking like an Instagram, social media 15%, we're talking about a real 15%, which is way leaner than people think. Most guys online that say they're, you know, I'm 15% body fat, they're like 19 or 20. They're not even close. But so these are guys that can see the linea alba all the way, like at least all the way down to the belly button. And they can usually see the top two abs and some of the bottom two is the middle two abs, but they can't see the bottom abs yet. That's around that's roughly 15%. Right. And so with their physiology is going to be massively different than people who are category three, which is on the complete other end, where you have guys who are say over 25% body fat. Okay, so I'm not saying that the same program wouldn't work for those people. What I'm saying is, there are different programs that would be inherently better for them. So like for a really overweight person, they have plenty of stored energy on their body. So they can handle a bigger deficit. They probably don't need as much protein by body weight as somebody who's leaner. But if we equalize that out to fat-free mass, then we can equalize that to all categories. But the people who are really heavy, basically low carb works fantastically well for them. It helps with their dyslipidemia. It helps with their blood fats, helps with their triglycerides, helps with metabolic resistance. It helps open up channels to lose body fat faster by getting fat released and burned off. There are training modalities that were better for them, like cardio. I'm going to tell you right now, cardio is king if you're really overweight. Yes, you still need to lift weights. However, cardio is the best way, the easiest low-hanging fruit to building mitochondria, which is what overweight people don't have. They don't have well-functioning mitochondria. When you get really lean, you don't need to worry about that unless you're really out of shape. But if you're in shape and you're lean, what you need is more weightlifting and less cardio. So you have these, I'd use a lot of continuums with what I do. So if I have a continuum where I have a really overweight person on one side, a really lean person on the other side, and average people in the middle, you might have more cardio especially aerobic conditioning and minimal effective dose of weight lifting with the guys who are overweight as you go down that continuum now we're getting in better shape and we're losing body fat so this physiology starts to

change. So we may be pulling some of that cardio out and replacing it with weight training. And by the time you get really lean, now, it's mostly weight training with very little cardio and mostly anaerobic stuff or mixed anaerobic anaerobic. And the reason this is the case is that when you are in that category three, the odds that you are very insulin resistant is really high. Okay, very insulin resistant, you don't have a problem removing fat from fat cells, Breaking fat down from fat cells and putting in the bloodstream, you don't have a problem with it. You have a problem using it for energy and using it for heat because of the poor functioning mitochondria. So it makes more sense that you would do things that would beef up mitochondrial content and function. And then by the time you get really lean, the problem is basically persuading fat cells to relinquish the fat. Because the leaner you get, the more your body doesn't want to get rid of that. But you don't have a problem burning it off if you can just get rid of it. So low intensity type stuff for overweight people, high intensity stuff for people who already lean, that's pretty much what I found to be the fastest thing for them. And like I said, everything works. I don't want anybody to hear me saying, hey, you must do a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet, or you have to do a protein spray modified fast when you're really overweight. No, no, no, no, that's not the thing. You don't even have to do a low carb diet. Anything will work. However, I'm telling you what's going to work fastest and what's going to keep you satiated and able to stay on your diet. If you can just get over your carbohydrate addiction, you could go fiber, electrolytes, don't even need really high fat, just hammer your protein, low carb it, do your conditioning, couple of full body days of weight training. when you get into that category two kind of the average body fat start shifting your program and by the time you get lean we have a completely different program because you are more insulin sensitive you're more anabolic towards protein and building muscle and so now you can see like there's there's shifts in the physiology so if we understand there's shifts in physiology why would we not shift the programs why would we think that all programs are suitable for every people it's like you and i have completely different physiques right so like if you and i do the same program are we going to get similar results yes because fundamentally physiology is physiology but are we also going to get massively different results like i've been training longer than you've been alive i'm built i'm built for power lifting and strength stuff right so i may be doing mostly powerlifting type stuff and Olympic weightlifting with a little bit of bodybuilding, you might be doing more bodybuilding stuff and maybe more strength endurance. You know, so it's like, it'd be, it'd be really, it'd be felicious to think that a bench press, if I bench press and you bench press the same weight, that it's going to feel the same and it's going to operate the same. Those are actually two different exercises between me and you because we have completely different body types. Yeah, absolutely. So just as a quick recap, we've got these three categories and on the two ends of the spectrum, we've got category one, really lean people. Category three, the people who carry the greatest amount of body fat. Their respective bottlenecks are for the leaner people, it's persuading fat to get out of the cell and get into the bloodstream. Whereas the bottleneck for people who have more body fat, they don't struggle with having fat in their bloodstream, in fact, their triglycerides in the blood are usually quite high, is getting, persuading the mitochondria to burn that body fat for energy. That's the problem. And you talk about how for this particular population, usually cardio is the biggest lever to improve the health and number of mitochondria to accomplish that. When it comes to people who are really lean, you've mentioned high intensity type stuff. Would you characterize that a bit more and explain what kind of dietary protocols as well as training protocols might be more effective to persuade the fat to leave the cell and get into the bloodstream? Okay, yeah. So when we look at it, we have a fat cell. And a fat cell, all cells have to be stimulated to do things. So this is why we have receptors and this is why we have hormones. a hormone attaches to its receptor, and then it creates a downstream cascade of biochemical switches. So the biochemical switch for a fat cell, like one of them, is attaching to a beta receptor. You attach to a beta receptor, and this creates a downstream effect of phosphorylating hormone lipase which then creates an alteration in cyclic AMP Sorry cyclic AMP phosphorylates hormone lipase Hormone-sensitive lipase now starts to break triglyceride into isoglycerol, monoisoglycerol, and there's some other ones. I'm only saying hormone-sensitive lipase because that's probably the one that people, if they ever read this, that's the one they're going to see. but we have to take this backbone of triacylglyceride and break it down into a glycerol backbone and three fatty acids. Those three fatty acids are pushing the bloodstream. That's how we get rid of it. So it's, it's actually broken down via a stress hormone. One way it's broken down. So when you get lean, the easiest way to do this is to do things that now create a high level of adrenaline and noradrenaline, because those are the catecholamines that facilitate breaking down the trisoglycerol. So when you're when when you look at somebody who's really overweight, they're the fat cells can only get to a certain size before they have to push some of that fat back into the bloodstream. And this is how people get really, really when you see people like my 700 pound life on Discovery Channel or something, and you go, how can somebody get that big? Well, the fat cells can only hold a certain amount. So when they get to the point where they can't hold anymore, they start pushing the fat back into the bloodstream, which is why they get high triglycerides and dyslipidemia, bad cholesterol, all this stuff. They have to start making new fat cells from pre-adipocytes, adipocytes being a fat cell. So you have like pre-fat cells, like baby fat cells that now get turned into fully mature fat cells. So they have more storage tanks for the successive amount of energy that's in their body. So that's how they get more bigger and bigger over time. Now, keep in mind that they are already in tune to push their fat back into the bloodstream. The problem is they have an issue transporting that fat to where it needs to go, which is cardiac tissue, muscle tissue, any tissue that can burn body fat. So you go look at people who are really overweight, nine times out of 10, they're going to have high blood pressure. If you have high blood pressure, you don't have great vesodilation of your arteries. You don't have great vasodilation of your vascular system, it gets very difficult to move things around the body. So the fat cells or the fat that goes into the bloodstream goes through what's called re-esterification, meaning it's bonded back to glycerol and put back into the fat cell. So like we talked about in that course, you have four things you need to worry about. The first thing is you have to release the fat or get it out of the fat cell. The second thing is you have to transport it to some some place in the body that can burn it off the third thing is we have to burn it off which is beta beta oxidation and the fourth thing is trying to prevent re-esterification so it's like if you if you were to eat in a surplus and you went and trained you would release fat into the bloodstream because the training would pump up your adrenaline and noradrenaline which would attach to that receptor and cause a breakdown of fat. But if you weren't in a calorie deficit, if you ate back the energy that you did on your cardio, that fat would just go right back into a fat cell or a different fat cell somewhere in the body. So it's like you absolutely cannot lose body fat unless you're in a calorie deficit. So it's like when we talked about you can leverage nutrition, you can leverage training, you could write your program. let's say your TDEE, your total daily energy expenditure, all the energy you burned over the day was 3000. If you did 1000 calories of exercise, but then you ate that back, so you ate 4000 calories that day, you would never lose weight. If you if you did 1000 calories of exercise, and only ate the 3000, which is your your normal daily energy expenditure, you would lose weight, and you would lose it really quickly. The only problem is doing it through training is the hard way of doing it logistically. It takes more time. It's fatiguing, takes more energy to do it, takes more dedication to do it. It's really difficult to lose weight through exercise for most people because they don't have time to train like an athlete. If you can train 12 hours a week, you could just eat at your normal non-training TDEE, you'd lose tons of weight. The easiest way to do it is to diet because it's far easier to pull food. The only difference is it's physically more difficult to train the fat off, it's psychologically more difficult to pull the food, because people will just be hungry. And they don't know how they don't have any discipline to say, okay, being hungry is part of losing a lot of weight really fast. So I just need to ignore the hunger and make sure I stay hydrated and have some electrolytes. But gonna go back, I'm digressing a bit But you know how I do it I go on different directions But to go back to it like if you were someone who was very overweight you don need to do anything special If you just if you just don't eat, like you keep carbs low, or keep carbs to specific times of the day, like around your workout, or maybe for breakfast or carb backloading. The goal is to have low insulin more during the day than you have higher insulin. Whenever you eat carbs, your insulin is going to go up. And now your insulin is going to be up for a certain period of time. The goal is to utilize that when you need it, like right after a workout is a perfect time to do that. Because you're already set up for recovery, or you're set up to a position where you need to optimize recovery. So having carbs around your workouts a good, good time to do it, you can have them a couple hours before so you can feel the workout, have them right after to have an anti catabolic and a pro amino acid uptake kind of effect, but then have periods of low insulin. So maybe you have carbs for four or five hours of the day, but then you don't have them the rest of the day. When insulin is low, that allows the fat to come out of the cell more effectively. Okay. Now, when you look at somebody who's really lean, they need more of a catalyst because remember the facials don't want to get rid of the fat. So the best possible thing we can do is something very high intense that is now going to bring catecholamines up to kind of in a way force the fat out of the bloodstream and now they they can burn it off because they don't have a problem with it yeah that makes sense i just want to um characterize what you mean by high intensity a little bit more because if people otherwise if they listen if i were just around them off the street i'd be like do you mean it but haven't you just said that we should do more resistance training and less card so what's Once I finished and started taking that drink of water, I'm like, wait a minute. I didn't clarify what high intensity means. Hit is a good, yeah. So hit would be a good thing, right? So your conditioning when you're on the category three side might be a lot of low to moderate intensity steady state cardio, meaning you're going to have your heart rate around like 70%, maybe 80% of your heart rate. So like low intensity steady state would be around say 70 to 73% of heart rate max. moderate would be somewhere around 80 percent now if we go to the lean side i'm talking about sprints so like doing going as hard as you can for 30 seconds and then resting for a minute minute and a half and then doing it again now you can see where that poses a problem when people are overweight because what are they going to do like what can you you could do you would have to do non impact. So and you would need something that would allow you to build enough, enough intensity and intensity when we talk about endurance is a little bit different than intensity with weight lifting intensity of weight lifting was related to how much load is on the bar. Intensity with cardio is basically how fast you're moving. So we're talking about velocity. It's like you could if you got on a rower, you could make that high intense, but you'd also need the technical skill to be able to row. And you'd also have to have the lower back to allow you to roll. You'd have to, you could do it on skier, right? But it'd be, you know, it's, it's kind of a finagled way of trying to get your heart rate up unless you're really good at the skier. You could use a treadmill, but if you're overweight, now you're bashing your joints to hell. You could use an echo bike or an assault bike would be probably the perfect ones to do that. But if you're really overweight, it's unnecessary. Like, why would you, why would you, why would you pull out the nuclear bomb when we could be diplomatic and talk between countries and work it out that way? So like, that would be low intensity steady state is we're going to work it out. Hit is like nuclear holocaust because in order to make it work, you have to go hard enough to make yourself nauseous and it sucks. So that's why you have to be in shape for that first. And that's why it's better used when you're already in shape and already lean, because it's going to be a lot easier that way. It's never going to be hits never easy if you're doing it correctly. But you also don't want to make it worse than it has to be. So we want weight training is another form of hit. So it's like, if I'm lifting with intensity, meaning I've got a lot of load on the bar. So if I'm lifting with sets of say, like six to eight, that would be a good marker of for gen pop, I think that's a good sweet spot. Once they're once they're capable in the movement of lifting that heavy without injury. And if something goes wrong, something goes sideways, they can recover, then that would be a good choice. Like for more advanced people, I would say even lifting like sets of five sets of four to six would be good. Anything that's going to create a sense of danger to your brain is going to crank up the sympathetic system, which is going to crank up your adrenaline and adrenaline, which is therefore going to stimulate fat to release. Now you can do it through cardio too if you do standard cardio but you would go you talking about like high intensity moderate to high intensity But so I think to kind of to kind of sum up that it like when you really overweight you don't have to do anything super crazy to lose body fat, you just got to get the work done. And you have to control what goes in your mouth. When you get super lean, if you want to get even more lean, you're gonna have to do harder stuff to get there. That's why you don't see tons of people walking around with a six pack and veins on their abs. It's too difficult for most people. Like, so for most gen pop, most guys that are gen pop would love to be 50, like a true 15%. And then if you tell them that they go, Hey, I want to be 12%. You're like, okay, getting the 15 was easy. Getting the 12 is going to be a quite a bit harder. And if you get there and you want to be single digit, that becomes astronomically hard. And then getting down to say, contest shape, like say four to 6% is so stupidly difficult. I don't think people understand. And they they'll always say, Well, I have a friend who's 6% body fat year round. I'm like, yeah, your friend's skinny, tiny. And he was like that when he was six years old. Like he won the genetic lottery. When you're six years old, you look like the the overweight kid on the Goonies. Like, you just you have to understand genetics suck. It's like some people won the genetic lottery, some didn't. So some it's going to be easier for some people, it's gonna be harder for other people. But for most of us that weren't genetically blessed, getting down to those really low levels of body fat is so ridiculously, it's like the Stephen Hawking of getting lean, like, it's like the, the Tesla of getting lean, like, it's a genius level type thing, like, and I don't know if that's making sense. But it's like, if you think about I think about like chess, right? Everybody can play chess. Anyone can learn how to play chess. Most people can learn how to play chess and be really good. Very, very few people can think 20 steps ahead and dominate everything. Like when you look at chess masters, like it's like, there's no way you're going to get there unless you were just blessed and you had the brain for it. It's the same thing with body fat. That doesn't mean you can't try, that doesn't mean you won't be successful, but it may be harder for some people than others. So let's pick what's going to make it the easiest, most direct pathway possible. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think the fact that you brought up how there are more challenging goals when it comes to getting lean is a good segue for me to move into a topic that I think is near and dear to a lot of people, which is the topic of stubborn facts, whereby many people, and especially people who were assigned female at birth, so women, but also trans men, they find that they have these stubborn areas that take a really, really long time to be known. And you spoke about this at the seminar as well. So I'd like to hear about whether this is valid, whether that's true, and the differences between sexes and how we can hopefully get rid of this stubbornness. that. Yeah. So, and yeah, so if we look at it from a traditional body type, uh, and look at traditional body type of biological sex, most women are going to have a gynoid fat distribution, which means they're going to have hips and leg fat. Most guys are going to have an Android weight distribution, which means it's all around their tummy mostly. Right. So you can think about like gyno would be the traditional pear shape and then the guy and then the android would be the traditional like and then you have the weirdos that are ectomorphs and they look like the letter i and those are the guys that were like three percent body fat when they were four years old you know they're always good but they have a hard time putting on muscle we all have our own battles like those are the guys that just lift for five years and just to put on like a half a kilo of muscle right so everybody's got their own battle that they're dealing with but when you look at the stubborn body fat because of these body fat distribution ratios, there are different receptors that command that. So that's part of why it might be more difficult. So people, people tend to lose body fat fairly symmetrically until they start getting pretty lean. And then they start losing from the easy places, which like say for women would be around their tummies, their upper back, and their hard places will be the last to go, which would be like booty fat, saddlebags, thigh fat. Now with guys it'll be basically subumbilicus. So you'll see guys will get that they'll have the full tire and then their arms and legs will get really lean and then it'll go down until it's like right at that mid-naval area and then down a few inches and it'll go all the way around and so now their tire has gone from like this to this and that's like the last

to go and then they'll and then some booty fat, right when you start getting what we call acorn butt, which is like you can squeeze your butt and the muscles look like an acorn. So now for a lot of guys have it easy because we don't really have that many trouble areas. And so guys, if you just keep dieting, you'll get lean, right? And it's not, it's just the function of being a dude. But with women, a lot of times they'll get super lean everywhere. And then they'll have areas that or resistant. Now, one option is that you just got to keep dieting like you're you're only as leanest as your fattest pinch or your fattest area. So a lot of people will give up at that point, though, because when they're losing it symmetrically, they can see they're looking better. But then they get to a point where now it doesn't look symmetric anymore, because they're losing a lot more, it's going faster from the easier places. So they start sometimes looking worse than when they were just a little bit more robust, we'll say. So then a lot of times they'll give up because they didn't see any trouble areas until they lost fat around those trouble areas. Now they see the trouble areas and it can be mentally, it can mentally screw people over. So one of the things is basically you just got to keep dieting. And that can suck because then, you know you get overly lean somewhere and you might not like the way you look the secondary thing is just to understand that you have different receptors and those beta receptors we talked about are one side of it the other side is alpha receptors and alpha receptors can now keep fat in the cell now one of the easiest ways to to release those is a low low insulin so now we're back at what we talked about with having time periods of high insulin and time periods of low insulin and maybe instead of saying like because intermittent fasting is a big thing with people like a 16-8 what i would say is not necessarily intermittent fasting but intermittent carb periods or intermittent intermittent insulin periods where you might do the same thing of like a 16-8 or you might do like an 18-6 or 20-4 and in that small window is where you put all your carbs and like I said earlier, I'd bulk all of that around my workouts. That would work fantastically well because insulin activates those alpha receptors and keeps the fat locked into the cell. Now, if we keep a low insulin state, we can bypass some of that issue. But at the end of the day, a lot of those trouble areas, you just have to continue dieting. That's the only way you can do it. Now, what sucks is that people will get leaner and then they'll get discouraged because now they see those trouble areas. So they go off the wagon and they start overeating again and putting fat back on. Here's the problem. You don't put the fat back on symmetrically. You're probably going to put that mostly in the trouble areas, which now makes the problem even worse. So you're better off just understanding that you're going to hit a period where you might not like the way you look. you have to keep going and if you decide that you're tired of keeping going and you want to break don't go overboard and put a bunch of fat back on because there's a really high potential for it to go into those trouble areas and now it's going to be twice as hard the next time you try to get lean to get rid of the trouble areas and if you do this if you yo-yo six seven eight times it's just going to be astronomically difficult by the time you go, okay, I remember what Luke said. I just have to keep going. Okay. Go until you get tired of it, then reverse out of it, but don't reverse out to the point where you put fat back on reverse out to where you can now kind of cruise a bit and get rid of your diet fatigue and then, then slowly get back into it and try to make that next drop out for women. I'll do this a lot where I'll take them, maybe they're 35% body fat, and we get them down to say 26%. And that's where they start seeing some trouble areas and they start getting discouraged. I'm like, okay, let's let's put the brakes on the dieting. Let's reverse out a little bit. And let's kind of cruise and take a couple of months, maybe we do some hypertrophy stuff and build up your upper body. So it looks more symmetrical with the lower body. Then we'll go back into it and see if we can drop the next couple of percent we do that. and then, okay, let's pull them out of it. Let's build their upper body a bit more. And then we go for the next 2%. But the key is to make that forward progress. And then if you're going to stop at that point, don't slide back. Don't let it push you back to where you were. You have to maintain that somewhere around where you finished and try to maintain that for a bit of time. And that where I would highly advise especially women to work on their upper bodies because women are inherently just traditionally bottom heavy And that also one of the things that visually is sometimes an illusion It screws them up because they lose a lot of fat in their upper body. And now it looks like they have a different upper and lower body. So it's like, let's go into a hypertrophy phase and build up some muscle. But let's not do it in a way where you're going to put on a bunch of fat. We just want to try to put on muscle and just take months and months of upper body work. Now, if your upper body is bigger, it makes your lower body look more symmetric. Now, when you start to diet down again, it's going to take a few more percent before you go, oh, I can see the trouble areas. Okay, let's stop, build up the upper body. Let's just keep going through this process over and over, and eventually everything will look symmetric. But in that case, I think what a lot of women should focus on is more bodybuilding type work and thinking about like building shoulders, shoulders, especially the medial delt. If you can get the shoulders to be a little bit wider, it's always going to make your hips look more narrow. If you look at guys who have a more of a mesomorphic type build like I have, you know, kind of wide shoulders, narrow hips. OK, you look at a woman, wide hips, narrow shoulders. So how do we equalize that? Well, build bigger shoulders and now they'll look more symmetric with your hips and then diet down the hips. It just makes sense to do it that way. Whereas someone that had, like myself, I have to make sure when I train my legs that I focus on quads, especially the outside quad. Because if my outside quad shrinks because my shoulder is so wide, it makes me look like I have no legs. So everybody's got their own battles that they have to deal with. Yeah, I would only add that building the lats can also add the illusion because then it makes your waist look a lot smaller. 100%. I'm glad you brought that up because it does. It does. And especially if we have women that already have kind of a slim waist, if you train the lats, it gives this nice tie-in. Because if you just train the shoulders, you're going to have, like, the shoulders and, like, straight down. So you want this – you have this symmetry that kind of flows out that way. It kind of – it directs the eyes to more of an hourglass shape, which is what a lot of women love. They like that hourglass shape. like Marilyn Monroe, you think about Marilyn Monroe, she's the first one where everybody's like, oh, the hourglass shape and all the women want to look like that. And so if you aren't, if you're, if you're, if you have a traditional phenotype or a traditional genetic structure of most women, where that top is a little bit smaller, and you're losing body fat, and you lose it too much from the upper body, how am I going to make that hourglass shape, I'm going to have to do some some other tissue has to grow okay let's build muscle tissue to now even that out a little bit that makes perfect sense and i'm also glad you brought up the importance of understanding the phase in the nature of dieting because in the typical view of somebody who um enters the fitness community for the first time we're all told okay go on this diet you lose the fat you'll be happy when in fact for a variety of reasons that you brought up as well psychological reasons uh stubborn areas reasons uh at the end of the day relates to psychology anyway um the approach of expecting that one diet will make you look the way that you want simply doesn't work because for one most people don't just want to look like a smaller version of themselves they want to lose the fat and have some muscle there which is going to be a lot easier to build if you're not always in a calorie deficit and um number two psychologically dieting for months on end is really difficult and so it makes sense after 12 16 20 weeks maybe you get tired of it and you need a break and expecting to drag yourself to the finish line um it's just unrealistic at least in the context of the clients i've worked with yeah and also look a lot of people don't realize because okay when i when i got into the industry there weren't that many people at the gym. And it was mostly dudes. There weren't that many girls. Like the only, the girls that came in were the girls who they were bodybuilders. Right. And that was like a really weird taboo thing for women to train because they didn't want to get bulky weights made her bulky or whatever. And they didn't thought they were like, they've always been told that women can't be strong, which is also bullshit. And so now we have this really good transition where we have way more women in the gym. Women are now actually lifting hard, wanting to get stronger, wanting to grow muscle I think this is fantastic And I think that a lot of the women that are going in they need to understand that it also a very slow process So you not going to lift for three months I know everybody looks at these transformations online I was talking to a mentorship student about this Every radical transformation online, you see the people are on drugs. Full stop. And they'll say, no, my clients aren't on drugs. I'm telling you right now, the amount of people on drugs in our industry right now is absolutely skyrocketed over the last few years. and the clients on drugs have skyrocketed. So don't use someone's 12-week transformation if they've gone from zero to hero as your proxy for your development unless you're gonna take performance enhancing drugs because that's exactly how they're doing it. There's a finite amount of muscle you can put on without drugs. And women, they don't put on muscle that quickly. They will at first, but then it slows down just like it does with guys. but guys tend to maintain a small bit higher muscle mass gain. It's not by not my much, but it's still, it's abysmally slow for both men and women. So they need to understand you can't, if you just diet down, you've never trained before. And this is, you're just now starting to lift weights. If you just diet down, you're going to be, you're going to be really unhappy with your physique because you could diet down and look the same, just smaller, or you could diet down and look absolutely horrid. You could die down and look at the physique of a coat hanger. And when people, when people go into the gym, I don't think they're looking at it like, Hey, I just would like to be skin and bone. It, most people will want to have some shape that you have to build muscle to have shape. So you have to have these periods of time where you go, okay, we can't focus on fat loss right now. We need to focus on building strength and building muscle and having that kind of biphasic. So I actually wish every woman who went into the gym would start with strength and hypertrophy first and not worry about their body fat. It would make it so much easier if they would just eat, even at maintenance or maintenance minus 10, and just hammer six to eight months, even 12 months of building muscle and strength and then dieting. oh my god that they would be they would be gobsmacked at how fast the fat falls off of them when they switch from a really long i don't want to call it bulking because we're not trying to book we're just we're still we're still if you eat at maintenance minus 10 you high protein and train hard you're still going to be losing fat it's just going to be really slow but if you do that for a year let's say you did it for a year and maybe you lost you only lost like three kilos of body fat, but you put on six kilos of muscle, you're going to look so different. You're going to feel different. You're going to perform different. And then when you move into an actual dedicated fat loss phase and you pull say five, 700 calories out, the fat will just basically start melting off of you. And then have a beginning and end and say, I'm going to spend three months. I'm going to do it hard. And then I'm going to go back into six months of building. But the problem is that people have such a short-sighted viewpoint of things. They look at things like 12-week transformations, 10-week transformations, six-week transformations. Now we're going to do a 24-hour transformation. That's what the industry has led people to believe of how fast this stuff can happen to build the physique of your dreams. And it's complete lunacy. If people would just look at it from how do I want to look by the end of three years? So let's plan out your next three years and how that's going to look. Man, they would be so much happier because you get people that get on the dieting roller coaster. And three years later, they still hate the way they look. Yeah, that's because you've been planning 12 weeks at a time instead of going, okay, I'm going to plan out three years. And I'm going to look my best in three years. And I'm going to be so grateful that I spent the time doing it. And I'm going to be happy and I'll be proud of what I did. But no, people want to look at it workout to workout and week to week and quarter to quarter, which is the wrong way. This is a marathon. It's a marathon done with weights, with high intensity. I do wonder if social media has worsened this lack of perspective that people seem to have because we just see photos without context. For example, even in the case of people who don't take performance-enhancing drugs and they have a 16-week transformation, by the nature of physique changes, the illusion is that they're going to look bigger by the end because their muscles put out more. So I'll have clients question that and say, well, how did that person turn into that by the end of the 16-week period when you've told me that it takes so long to build muscle? And because the pictures don't have context, people aren't aware of the fact that the person that had that transformation started out with muscle that they spent five to 10 years building so it does make me wonder if the ephemeral and the ephemeral nature and also the lack of context that social media tends to have has worsened people's perception hundred percent and the things respect which is lie like you can't see things in pictures Um, even if you, even if you had even a, a low to moderately, a low to moderate amount of muscle mass, like nothing like average muscle mass of somebody who had trained a year or something, and you do a transformation, you're going to look bigger in the picture because you can see the muscle and the fats gone. So you can have somebody who say 80 kilos, let's say you had somebody, let's say somebody 80 kilos and 25% body fat. And then 12 weeks later, you see a picture of them at 6% body fat. And you're like, good Lord, look how big they are. But they may only weigh like 65 kilos. Like they're actually way smaller than you think. I remember a friend of mine went to a bodybuilding show in Austin, Texas, which is where I spent most of my early adult life. Once I got, once I turned 18, I left my little tiny poor country town and I moved to Austin. and there's a guy there named Dave Gooden who's known as the Texas Shredder super good dude he's been in the bodybuilding world for multiple decades and uh he he used to be in the magazines like like uh muscle and fitness and iron man magazine you if you go pull an old iron man magazines you will see him in some of the pictures and he looks absolutely enormous so we he was gonna guest pose. And we were at a bodybuilding show, my friend goes, I can't wait to see Dave good. I want to see how big he is. And I went, Look, I don't want I'm gonna just preface this so that you don't surprise. He's a tiny little dude. He looks massive in pictures, but he's tiny. He's like a buck 65. And he was like, What? And he looks like he's 265 pounds in pictures. I'm like, he's not a big dude. He's diced and he has a amazing physique, but he's don't, when he comes out, you're going to be really surprised. And, uh, he came out, he came out, he had hurt his, I think he had hurt his leg, hurt his foot or his ankle or something. So he comes out in like a boot and a cane, and he's got a pimp jacket on and a pimp hat. And they played pimp juice while he walked up the aisle and he threw the thing off, started posing. And he's a fantastic poser. And my friend goes, oh my God, he's way smaller. And I thought, I go, yeah, I told you, this is why you can't trust pictures like I've met guys like I remember meeting Gunther who was like six foot four like 315 I remember meeting that dude and like yeah he was so mad his hands were so big when he shook my hand his fingers were almost at my damn elbows but like you see guys like that and then you see a guy like Dave Gooden they look the same in pictures because they can play with perspective but then you see him in real life and you see one guy six foot four and one guy's like 510 or 5'9 you know But then you can't tell on social media because social media is all smoke and mirrors and lies. It's Photoshop. It's angles. It's cameras. It's lighting. It's all this stuff. But you can make somebody look 10% leaner if you do the right lighting and the right angle of the camera and you have a good photographer. And then, of course, they can touch it up on an iPhone app. And everybody, even without using Photoshop, without trying to dupe people, everybody, even people who are not in the fitness industry, just people who go to the gym because we all post our best angles because why would we post our worst ones? Yeah. Yeah. Nobody posts. You never see that. And you see like in the bodybuilding side, you always know when somebody's gone off the rails because you never see a current picture of them. It's always like it's always photos of a couple of years ago when they competed. and because this is a real a real thing that i think a lot of gym pop people don't understand is like a lot of people they'll do a contest and then they go off the rails and they put on a heap of fat and they look completely different than what you're seeing online so then you're like it's been throwback thursday from 2021 for the last year i wonder what happened and then you see them in person you're like whoa they do not look like that anymore there was a fitness chick that my wife really liked. And I remember we're in Melbourne at the Melbourne Arnold's and I heard a voice, this American voice, and I was like, oh, that's so-and-so. I'm not going to say who it was. That's so-and-so. And Zoe was like, oh my God. And she turns around and she goes, oh, she doesn't look anything like her pictures online. I'm like, yeah, I know. That's the lie of social media. Yes, I definitely don't think people have an understanding of how difficult contest practice for bodybuilding, just like we spoke about when we were talking about category one people wanting to get leaner. but also because it

so difficult. There are very few people who make it to the actual contest. And you won't hear about that on social media because they're not there. You only hear about the people who win or at least maybe to the contest. And also there are very few people who are able to regain a sustainable amount of body fat without overshooting even their starting point at the start of the diet. Because at that point, your physiology is basically screaming for you to put some body fat back on. and most people aren't able as you were saying earlier to tune that off and gradually increase how much they're eating and letting their body fat come back on most people give in to those urges because it's just physiology it's natural there's nothing wrong it doesn't make them bad people or incompetent or lacking willpower they are just doing what their body's asking desperately asking them to do they no longer have the goal of contest shape so they've got no rails to keep to stay behind and they end up regaining a lot of body fat very quickly and then they either disappear off of social media and you're like what happened to that bodybuilder or um they keep posting throwback thursday pictures just like you said the the people at the top the people at the top are they've done it long enough where they can actually do it right they can do a contest they know how to do it right so they're not trying they're not forcing it. They're not rushing it. And then they can ease out of it. But a lot of people at the amateur level will do that. They won't time it correctly. They'll rush it. They won't give them enough time to do it. They'll have to starve themselves at the end. They're doing crazy stuff to try to get the last little bit off. And then they get on stage, they get off, they have their first free meal in the last months, and then they can't stop eating. They just start eating and they just can't stop. So now if we look at gen pop, gen pop can go through the same thing, but the thing that most of them won't get to the levels of leanness, but the biology is the same. If you crash diet and you don't have the program written correctly and you don't have an exit strategy, most likely your exit strategy is going to be turning your mouth into a food vacuum cleaner and not being able to shut it off. And then you're like, oh, I shouldn't have eaten that. And then you do it again. Oh, shouldn't eat but it's your brain making you do it it's not your fault right so it's uh there's no there's no shame in this there shouldn't be shame or guilt it's it's a normal biological thing your brain will make you do things that you don't want to do there's like there's a name for it you're hangry you know it's like you get hangry you reach for a snickers bar or 50 of them you know and then And once you get on that roller coaster, it's really difficult to get off. And then the shame that you feel and the guilt that you feel then re like integrates a negative feedback loop or a negative habit loop that then makes you keep doing it. It kind of like you kind of just your brain kind of said fuck it I got food now Let go And you just keep going And then you got it You got to you got to have a coming to Jesus talk or whoever you worship you got to have a talk with them and go all right okay I got to stop and I have to get back on track. It's like the best thing for gym pop, a lot of cases is what I said earlier, is just do the slow and steady, slow and steady route. It's boring, it takes longer, but it's way more sustainable and it's easier to prevent relapse because relapsing is the hardest part. But we have to normalize relapse too. We have to normalize that that's a normal thing to happen. But normalizing relapse and accepting that that's part of the process for most people doesn't mean that you just go, oh, relapse is good, so I'm just going to keep going. No, no, no, no, no. It's a thing to say I'm probably going to fail at some point. The point is to get back on the horse and not lay on the ground and eat bunches of donuts and Twinkies and shit, like, except that you did it. It's cool. Everybody does it. I still do it. Like you saw me in Winchester. I was shredded when I got to Europe. But I'm not gonna I'm there seeing friends I diet down because I know I'm gonna put on four or 5% body fat because there's beers there. I can't get here. There's foods I can get. I can't get here that I can get there. I'm going to be having fun with my friends. I'm not going to be dieting at that point. So I diet before I go. And then I relapse and I got home and then now I'm shredded again. In the last three weeks, I just shredded it back off. But it's like, people need to have that, maybe periodize out what they're going to do. Like if you're going to go on a holiday and you'll be lean for the holiday, give yourself enough time so you don't have to rush it. And then have fun on your holiday, get home, get back on track. Or if you fall off on the weekend, recognize that it's okay. be better in the week thank some calories for the weekend and then try to minimize what you're doing on the weekend like last night uh my wife graduated this year with a degree in clinical nutrition and so she which is it's so weird she graduated months and months ago but then she got to walk last night and actually do the whole like ceremony thing and so we went out to eat after it and i was like, okay, technically, I'm still dieting. And usually the weekend is where I have my refeed, but I'm not going to diet on a night that's special to her. So I'm going to eat what I want. But I'm gonna I'm gonna say, Okay, hey, chat GPT. Can you tell me what the macros calories all this stuff is for this? And what's the best choice on this menu? Okay, yeah, okay, I'm gonna get this burger here. Cool. And I'm gonna I'm gonna have I'm gonna drink but I'm only gonna have three alcoholic drinks. And that's it. And it's gonna fit my plan. Like I've got to be prepared. If you're prepared, and you then you can take action. If you're not prepared, like if I had not, if I wasn conscious about what I was doing last night I would have had easily two of those burgers I probably would have had eight or nine drinks I probably would have had an appetizer I probably would have had a dessert I would have gone because I'm dieting so hard, I would have gone straight off the reservation. But because I understood that what I was doing, I planned for it. And then I stuck to the plan. And then this morning, I got right back on the horse. Yeah, well, this part of the conversation brings up for me, Luke, is that there is a lot of misinformation in the fitness community, and that's why people lack perspective and understanding. And that's why it's as coaches, as people who work and educate others and have clients, I think largely we need to do a better job of educating people, which makes me think I'm really glad that I have the opportunity through my platform to connect with people like you so that you can speak to my audience. And I can also speak to my own audience as well. And we can all hopefully reach as many people as we can. Although social media makes it harder because you will always reach upon more people, given that it's faster and you can consume it much more quickly. But at the end of the day, we don't have control over that. We only have control over what we decide to do. And I think long form content is so much more educational and nuanced. And that's why I love having this podcast. and I've loved having you on. I think this interview has been so valuable and has touched on so many aspects of fat loss physiology that as I said at the beginning, most people don't talk about because they stop at the Instagram-worthy soundbites. It's just calories in and calories out. So I'm glad that we were able to go further into that. And in closing, I'd like for you to tell people where they can connect with you and your company so I can put all the links in the show notes. Okay, cool. I'm going to say one more thing, though, because what you just brought up is so important. Because I actually have a friend of mine who's visiting right now. And right before I got on this podcast, we talked about that, of why I hate social media. Because I hate short format content. Because short format content only allows you to give enough information to be dangerous, but you can't fully explain something. So it's like you have to do a long format video on YouTube and then do a short format and say, OK, now that you've seen this 60 seconds, go to YouTube to get the whole story, because you've seen what we put out. I say things sometimes that has enough context to piss people off. So I get half the people love what I'm saying and agree with me. Half of them disagree. And you see it in the comments. But we're doing that on purpose because we want people to think and we want to push people to like long format stuff. and you have to do this stupid manipulation crap for social media. And I absolutely, I hate it, but it's just a part of doing business these days. You just can't beat them, join them, right? But we were talking about that of like if I had like let say 50 of people agreed with me and said yeah hell yeah And if 50 said Oh you you a dumbass You don know what you talking about It's like, go to the, go watch the full one hour lecture and see if you still agree with me, because you may not after you hear the whole thing. And if you disagree with me, go, you may actually agree with me when you listen to the whole thing. And I think people need to get, we need to get people back to getting into long format stuff where things can be actually explain and stop trying to learn what you need to do on TikTok and Instagram. You know what TikTok and Instagram is really good for? Recipes. I love to cook, so I'll go there for recipes, but I'm not going there for training advice because there's no context. If I want training advice, I want long format or I'll pay somebody to learn the information I want to learn. right but anyways so uh that being said our god-awful youtube is i think it's muscle nerds i don't even know what our youtube is holy moly um but instagram is where we put on out our short format content to piss people off and that's muscle nerds underscore education and then our website which i'm about to redo is muscle nerds dot net excellent i'll find i'll find the youtube channel don't you worry and put the link in the show notes and then i'll use ai to pick out a few choice words from this conversation and i'll put them together into the most outrageous quote from you that i could possibly think of something like women need to lift pink dumbbells and take specialized creatine if they want to lose the stubborn fat in their hips in the next 12 days that will be the quote so then people will be like what the fuck are you talking about gonna listen to this podcast so I can dump shit on you and then the listener will be like oh okay never mind perfect I love it yeah you gotta do it and you gotta do it these days in any case look thank you very much for coming on I like a really tan for some reason I need to change my contrast makes my teeth like super white like holy moly yeah god all right it's quite dark too where you're in at least from my perspective. So you look really tan with really white teeth that like glow in the dark. I know. And it's like, that's not all right. I gotta, I gotta mess with my settings on my camera. Oh, don't you worry. This is, this podcast is audio only anyway. It's not on YouTube. So nobody will see that. I just described it though. So it will still go down in the record. Nice. Yeah. Leave it in. Love it. Awesome. Well, look, thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast and your listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will talk to you next time. Lastly, if you want to support the podcast and help me reach more people, please leave a five-star rating or review on any podcast platform that you're using. Thank you very much for listening and I'll speak to you soon.